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  #61  
Old 05.11.2010, 19:44
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Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

I have to agree with economisto- why are only certain opinions "okay" to hold and to voice? For example, when my friends talk about how capital punishment is absolutely horrifying and should be abolished, everybody smiles and praises them for being so "passionate". However, if I (only a hypothetical example ) come in saying I am completely for it I end up getting attacked and called a "barbarian". Why? Why can't people voice their so-called "mean" opinions?
I am sick of babysitting religious people, everybody else in the world is allowed to be criticized except for them.
Burning holy books is a little extreme, but what does it do? It just expresses a criticism of the other religion. So what?
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  #62  
Old 05.11.2010, 21:42
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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I have to agree with economisto- why are only certain opinions "okay" to hold and to voice? For example, when my friends talk about how capital punishment is absolutely horrifying and should be abolished, everybody smiles and praises them for being so "passionate". However, if I (only a hypothetical example ) come in saying I am completely for it I end up getting attacked and called a "barbarian". Why? Why can't people voice their so-called "mean" opinions?
I am sick of babysitting religious people, everybody else in the world is allowed to be criticized except for them.
Burning holy books is a little extreme, but what does it do? It just expresses a criticism of the other religion. So what?
Seriously:
1. If your friends cannot have a good argument about the pros and cons of capital punishment - > get better friends
2. You are perfectly ok to critizise any religion. I do so quite often and openly. But I do not burn a bible. So I critizize something on a rational level instead of an emotional outburst to just piss people off. Burning books/flags/any object with a meaning is just babaric - it is no criticism, but an insult.
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  #63  
Old 06.11.2010, 00:37
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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might wanna read up on the dissolution of british india and the "religious cleansing" that went on, or what still goes on today in indian in lynchmob style.

a good number of my indian friends and colleagues absolutely HAAAATE muslims.
Hinduism is regarded as rather tolerant towards other religions, especially when you compare it with christianity and islam. My indian friends have never expressed a dislike for muslims, but most of them didn't like people from pakistan.
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  #64  
Old 06.11.2010, 01:09
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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The Bernese police has today arrested a couple of Hindus living in Switzerland that planned to burn bibles and korans on the Bundesplatz today as they are "works of evil".

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/16377830
That the Berner Kantonspolizei reacts swiftly is unusual but in this case was excellent
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  #65  
Old 06.11.2010, 01:15
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Is it against the law to burn things? What are they being charged with? I'm going to burn an old copy of Janes Defence Weekly this afternoon because I'm out of kindling for my fire place. I hope I don't offend any neocons reading this.
legal points against them

- gross nonsense
- violating religious feelings
- causing violence and turmoil
- trying to interrupt law and order
- insulting religious feelings and beliefs

and so, the prosecution will ask for TEN years of prison
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  #66  
Old 06.11.2010, 01:23
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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legal points against them

1 gross nonsense
2 violating religious feelings
3 causing violence and turmoil
4 trying to interrupt law and order
5 insulting religious feelings and beliefs

and so, the prosecution will ask for TEN years of prison
I wish I was their lawyer....

1 doesn't make sense.
2. isn't against the law outside of Saudi Arabia - if it were, half the people on EF would be in jail.
3. There was no violence, and I wouldn't call the burning of two small books "turmoil"
4. meh
5. same as 2.
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  #67  
Old 06.11.2010, 01:34
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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legal points against them

- gross nonsense
- violating religious feelings
- causing violence and turmoil
- trying to interrupt law and order
- insulting religious feelings and beliefs

and so, the prosecution will ask for TEN years of prison
Wolly you gone nuts ! Having 2 "Hare Krishna" for 10years in the slammer .The correctional service would be sued for, cruel and unusual punishment , to the other inmate
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Old 06.11.2010, 01:42
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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I wish I was their lawyer....

1 doesn't make sense.
2. isn't against the law outside of Saudi Arabia - if it were, half the people on EF would be in jail.
3. There was no violence, and I wouldn't call the burning of two small books "turmoil"
4. meh
5. same as 2.
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Wolly you gone nuts ! Having 2 "Hare Krishna" for 10years in the slammer .The correctional service would be sued for, cruel and unusual punishment , to the other inmate
For the record: "Gross nonsense" used to be punishable according to German law till the 1960s. Yes, I am aware that this law would not work very well in the UK... Given the nature of Switzerland, I cannot outrule that it is still a crime here - I have the feeling that Wolli will cought up the law any time soon.
The Swiss law on religious respect was already posted and while we can discuss weather on not this law makes sense - I guess we can agree that some guys with t-shirts saying "I am the antichrist" burning bibles do somehow qualify for the text as it is law today in CH...
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Old 06.11.2010, 01:48
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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For the record: "Gross nonsense" used to be punishable according to German law till the 1960s. Yes, I am aware that this law would not work very well in the UK... Given the nature of Switzerland, I cannot outrule that it is still a crime here - I have the feeling that Wolli will cought up the law any time soon.
The Swiss law on religious respect was already posted and while we can discuss weather on not this law makes sense - I guess we can agree that some guys with t-shirts saying "I am the antichrist" burning bibles do somehow qualify for the text as it is law today in CH...
Yea the 60s ! Best time I ever had was in the 60s
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Old 06.11.2010, 01:57
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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And my point is, why would anyone value protecting religion? I suppose if you were both religious and self serving (a heady combination) you'd opt to protect your religion, but why should religion be given special treatment over any other body of thought or point of view?
It is beneficial for the state to protect all religions to keep up the peace and avoid the development of fundamentalism. The secular state has the duty to treat all religions equal. And the consitution grants everybody the freedom to choose their religion or philosophy. I don't think religions are given a 'special' status over 'philosophies of life'.
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  #71  
Old 06.11.2010, 02:00
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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It is beneficial for the state to protect all religions to keep up the peace and avoid the development of fundamentalism. The secular state has the duty to treat all religions equal. And the consitution grants everybody the freedom to choose their religion or philosophy. I don't think religions are given a 'special' status over 'philosophies of life'.
Religions are clearly given a special status, that's why they'd be OK if they'd have burned Vogue. Giving religions a special status doesn't avoid fundamentalism, it is fundamentalism. If you don't believe me, visit Saudi Arabia and burn a Quraan in public...it's also against the law.
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  #72  
Old 06.11.2010, 02:14
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Religions are clearly given a special status, that's why they'd be OK if they'd have burned Vogue. Giving religions a special status doesn't avoid fundamentalism, it is fundamentalism. If you don't believe me, visit Saudi Arabia and burn a Quraan in public...it's also against the law.
We're not talking about Saudi Arabia but Switzerland/ Europe.

It's not just religion that has a special status. Life philosophies are protected as well. If they had burned 'Nathan the wise' the outcry wouldn't have been as loud but it would have been a statement too. There's a reason why burning books* is considered evil.

*not lifestyle magazines
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  #73  
Old 06.11.2010, 12:18
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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I wish I was their lawyer....

1 doesn't make sense.
2. isn't against the law outside of Saudi Arabia - if it were, half the people on EF would be in jail.
3. There was no violence, and I wouldn't call the burning of two small books "turmoil"
4. meh
5. same as 2.
As rep. for the prosecution, I would state
1: that gross nonsense is against order
2+5: to insult the religious feelings is an offence against religious freedom
3: violence and turmoil would have been the reaction
4: to disrupt order is a punishable offence

the court may then decide them to be out with some financial penalty looking as follows
1: = CHF 30.--
2+5: = CHF 100.--
3: = CHF 50.--
4: = CHF 125.--
costs of police intervention = CHF 255.--
costs of the court = CHF 315.--
costs of the witnesses = CHF 105.--
costs of the court office = CHF 87.--
-
making a total of CHF 1067.--
-
if the payment is done within 3 days, it will be as such
if done later, within 2 months it will be CHF 1123.50
if done AFTER 2 months it will be CHF 1231.75
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  #74  
Old 06.11.2010, 12:22
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

I'm with Economisto on this: Religious groups should have no more special protection than anyone else. They should also, however, have no less.

It is perfectly acceptable, in my mind, for someone to burn a Bible or a Koran if they're trying to make a point. Of course, they should live with the consequences of that action, but there is no reason at all why a Bible should be treated any differently to a telephone directory, from a legal perspective.

However, if we are prepared to allow people to make free comment in this manner, we must be prepared to allow their opponents to make free comment, too. Which means that we should not object to Christian street preachers making a racket on a Saturday afternoon or Islamist protesters waving placards urging "death to the west". We can argue against them, of course, make counter-protest, insult them and so on, but we cannot prevent them from expressing themselves.

It's no good having free speech only for those you think are "reasonable". It's for everyone, or nobody at all.
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Old 06.11.2010, 12:27
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

Freedom of religion and its special status has different histories in different countries. In the US, it's because well many of the founders were fleeing persecution in Europe. In Canada, it was a result of giving Catholics their own school board, and was later enshrined in our charter of rights during the push multiculturalism phase.

The original reason is lost and now we have the case that religion is placed up top with race, ethnicity, language, etc as to be given special protection. Whereas as other modes of thought aren't. Religion in the end is simply a philosophical/political system with special rights against criticism.

And I don't like that.
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Old 06.11.2010, 12:27
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Wolly you gone nuts ! Having 2 "Hare Krishna" for 10years in the slammer .The correctional service would be sued for, cruel and unusual punishment , to the other inmate
It would increase the "abschreckende Wirkung" (deterrant effect) on the other inmates


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For the record: "Gross nonsense" used to be punishable according to German law till the 1960s. Yes, I am aware that this law would not work very well in the UK... Given the nature of Switzerland, I cannot outrule that it is still a crime here - I have the feeling that Wolli will cought up the law any time soon.
The Swiss law on religious respect was already posted and while we can discuss weather on not this law makes sense - I guess we can agree that some guys with t-shirts saying "I am the antichrist" burning bibles do somehow qualify for the text as it is law today in CH...
"Grober Unfug" is still subject to financial penalties. Ask your family lawyer what this exactly is in legal terms !

Since when does it matter whether a law makes sense ?


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  #77  
Old 06.11.2010, 12:40
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

This is all rather stupid, burning the beliefs of someone else or a book does not change anything and it is does not even change what has already been written in the past or happened, I think it`s just an attention seeking scam and lets hope they get their just desserts that`s awarded to them by the authorities.

Stupidity only breeds stupidity and nothing else.
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  #78  
Old 06.11.2010, 12:40
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Are we sure they didn't just get arrested for starting a fire outside of the properly designated barbecue areas?
To misuse the Bundesplatz for burning anything is a very serious threat to public order, and so a very serious offence

reminds me of an afternoon in military service, when we, in the absence of any officer had done the requested action ourselves, which was cleaning a valley of debris from a previous flooding, and then burnt the whole stuff in a big fire. The truck-driver of the troop was dispatched to organize Cervelats, newspapers etc. On one of the newspaper was a big photo of Mr Blocher,
and so I jokingly asked a friend whether we were to burn this chap, and he happily agreed, and so under laughters of the others we BURNT Mr Blocher and used the flames to improve our Cervelats. To our good luck, Professor Doktor Mörgeli was NOT present
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Old 06.11.2010, 12:41
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

It's forbidden in Switzerland for people to burn paper, cardboards in a chimney. I don't see how they could burn bible/Quran without violating that law?

I think the burning of any book through an autodafé ceremony by a group of people is just showing how intolerant this group is.

We are talking about switzerland and the constant reference to Saudi Arabia (but never to Vatican) is turning into an insane obsession. I don't think that Switzerland laws should be measured by the yardstick of saudi legislation. We are better than that.

The secular state is responsible for the religious peace, everyone is free to practice his/her religion as long as it does not prevent others from their own freedom. Provocation should be hindered by the legal arm of the state as it represents a risk for civil peace.
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Old 06.11.2010, 12:47
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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I'm with Economisto on this: Religious groups should have no more special protection than anyone else. They should also, however, have no less.

It is perfectly acceptable, in my mind, for someone to burn a Bible or a Koran if they're trying to make a point. Of course, they should live with the consequences of that action, but there is no reason at all why a Bible should be treated any differently to a telephone directory, from a legal perspective.

However, if we are prepared to allow people to make free comment in this manner, we must be prepared to allow their opponents to make free comment, too. Which means that we should not object to Christian street preachers making a racket on a Saturday afternoon or Islamist protesters waving placards urging "death to the west". We can argue against them, of course, make counter-protest, insult them and so on, but we cannot prevent them from expressing themselves.

It's no good having free speech only for those you think are "reasonable". It's for everyone, or nobody at all.
I think that your attempt to burn phone-books on the Bundesplatz would lead to unpleasant encounters with the Bernese police. If you burn some phone-books, Bibles and Korans on your barbecue on the balcony, it is no problem. Death-threats in public of any kind may bring you in conflict with policemen here in Switzerland. Talking rubbish in public not
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