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  #101  
Old 08.11.2010, 20:54
economisto
 
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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@economisto, clearly you do not believe in any kind of religion
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My question to you is how can you be a christian and also a right wing hyper Conservative, surely a follower of Christ would be more left wing?
Maybe let's stop guessing what I believe in, and judge what I write on it's merits (or lack thereof).


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However, there are millions whose sentiments would be hurt if you burned a book that formed the basis of their religion (does not matter which religion).

So while its okay for you to have your opinion, you need to be sensitive to others around you.
I understand people might be hurt, but why should we care? People are insulted all the time, every day. No one cares. There are articles all the time in the newspaper about how crap the Conservatives are, or how crap Labour is, or why Kant was full of it, or why Margaret Thatcher should "rot in hell" as per an EF poster yesterday.... religion is no different, or at least shouldn't be.
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  #102  
Old 08.11.2010, 21:33
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Could you perhaps give an example, as you are so clearly knowleagble in this area ?
Pleasure. Not sure though which "area" you refer to... about the political situation (which I did not respond to actually) or the lack of effective argumentative skills (which was in fact my point)?

If the latter, then we see this thread began with an inclination towards a discussion of holy texts and the freedom to express opinion against them in light of a recent event in Bern. However, the first reply lacks any grounded argument (it asks questions to which the answers are provided in news link, then makes an obscure comparison to JDW). Where the said comment should've been ignored at best it becomes the focus of subsequent replies. Therein lies the fault.

Made worse by generalizations such as: my friends are ___ and they hate all people of x-religion, therefore all people of that culture must hate x-religion. Or lack of validity such as: we're all allowed to have an opinion so there's nothing wrong with burning a holy text.

All I mean to say is that it's a shame. I don't claim to be "clearly logical" on the original topic, but I would have liked to read genuine political argument on the matter.






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  #103  
Old 08.11.2010, 21:41
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Pleasure. Not sure though which "area" you refer to... about the political situation (which I did not respond to actually) or the lack of effective argumentative skills (which was in fact my point)?

If the latter, then we see this thread began with an inclination towards a discussion of holy texts and the freedom to express opinion against them in light of a recent event in Bern. However, the first reply lacks any grounded argument (it asks questions to which the answers are provided in news link, then makes an obscure comparison to JDW). Where the said comment should've been ignored at best it becomes the focus of subsequent replies. Therein lies the fault.

Made worse by generalizations such as: my friends are ___ and they hate all people of x-religion, therefore all people of that culture must hate x-religion. Or lack of validity such as: we're all allowed to have an opinion so there's nothing wrong with burning a holy text.

All I mean to say is that it's a shame. I don't claim to be "clearly logical" on the original topic, but I would have liked to read genuine political argument on the matter.
You what, mate?
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  #104  
Old 08.11.2010, 21:46
swissbob
 
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

Kept out of it so far but what the hell.

Burning books, any books, is the last resort of the uneducated whatever their motives.
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  #105  
Old 08.11.2010, 21:49
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Kept out of it so far but what the hell.

Burning books, any books, is the last resort of the uneducated whatever their motives.
... or those who have run out of tinder for the barbecue.

It's a great way to attract attention without actually causing direct physical harm to anyone. It's like flag burning and bra burning - it makes an entertaining spectacle, then we can all go home for a cup of tea.

And if they've actually bought the books they're burning, then everybody benefits!

It's better than tipping over cars and smashing shop windows, surely?
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  #106  
Old 08.11.2010, 21:59
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Pleasure. Not sure though which "area" you refer to... about the political situation (which I did not respond to actually) or the lack of effective argumentative skills (which was in fact my point)?

If the latter, then we see this thread began with an inclination towards a discussion of holy texts and the freedom to express opinion against them in light of a recent event in Bern. However, the first reply lacks any grounded argument (it asks questions to which the answers are provided in news link, then makes an obscure comparison to JDW). Where the said comment should've been ignored at best it becomes the focus of subsequent replies. Therein lies the fault.

Made worse by generalizations such as: my friends are ___ and they hate all people of x-religion, therefore all people of that culture must hate x-religion. Or lack of validity such as: we're all allowed to have an opinion so there's nothing wrong with burning a holy text.

All I mean to say is that it's a shame. I don't claim to be "clearly logical" on the original topic, but I would have liked to read genuine political argument on the matter.


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Oh dear, your really not that switched on, are you ? I think better than try and get you to understand intelligent political debate perhaps we should look on the bright side, at least you haven't said much.

I imagine your the kind of person that when your computer does something you don't understand you describe it to friends as being "weird".
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  #107  
Old 08.11.2010, 22:01
Niranjan
 
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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If the latter, then we see this thread began with an inclination towards a discussion of holy texts and the freedom to express opinion against them in light of a recent event in Bern. However, the first reply lacks any grounded argument (it asks questions to which the answers are provided in news link, then makes an obscure comparison to JDW). Where the said comment should've been ignored at best it becomes the focus of subsequent replies. Therein lies the fault.
The OP simply stated a fact. It was the first reply that initiated the dicussion by saying something provocative and original; that gave direction to the discussion.

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Made worse by generalizations such as: my friends are ___ and they hate all people of x-religion, therefore all people of that culture must hate x-religion.
have you heard of the sampling method at all? it is used when the population is too large to measure


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Or lack of validity such as: we're all allowed to have an opinion so there's nothing wrong with burning a holy text.
Why do you think it lacks validity? In many countries, burning effigies of politicians (and bras and flags as noted above) is an accepted and extremely routine form of non-violent protest, people don't bat an eyelid there, so why should religious books be any more privileged?

Religion is bullsh!t anyway
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  #108  
Old 08.11.2010, 22:24
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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why not? i think most people are stupid and believe stupid things so deserve to be ridiculed and mocked
The last time, books got burned in Europe big style, was in the 1930ies, and done by the NSDAP-chaps. True, their leaders were NOT stupid, but DID believe stupid things No, to burn books, be it in protest about whatever or be it in order to try to oppress certain people is among the most stupid things in the world.

You of course can say that there are many stupid people on this planet, but to say "most people" to be stupid is rather an extreme notion.
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  #109  
Old 08.11.2010, 22:31
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Synagogues burnt that night not books.
There were tons of books in those Synagogues which got burnt down in the Kristallnacht, and these books clearly were a major target of the Nazis, who knew that the Jews had it with education and reading. Also cultural Jewish institution and schools were targetted exactly for this reason. The Theater-Ensemble of Konstanz shortly before the Reichskristallnacht in-corpore and with all their scripts managed to escape to Schaffhausen (most of them were Jews). And at the same time, at least one taylor got out of Konstanz and moved to Zurich in the same time, with all his material (books, etc). It goes without further explanation that they were helped by some informed people in Schaffhausen and Zürich
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  #110  
Old 08.11.2010, 22:31
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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The last time, books got burned in Europe big style, was in the 1930ies, and done by the NSDAP-chaps.
There was a little flurry of book burning in Britain in the eighties, too, which was quite entertaining for a while:

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  #111  
Old 08.11.2010, 22:36
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Maybe let's stop guessing what I believe in, and judge what I write on it's merits (or lack thereof).
--
I understand people might be hurt, but why should we care? People are insulted all the time, every day. No one cares. There are articles all the time in the newspaper about how crap the Conservatives are, or how crap Labour is, or why Kant was full of it, or why Margaret Thatcher should "rot in hell" as per an EF poster yesterday.... religion is no different, or at least shouldn't be.
Racist and religious insulting by Swiss federal law is a punishable offence. And burning anything on the Bundesplatz is violating public order and so a punishable offence.

While politicians have to accept being insulted, even by their colleagues. They are paid for that job
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  #112  
Old 08.11.2010, 22:41
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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The OP simply stated a fact. It was the first reply that initiated the dicussion by saying something provocative and original; that gave direction to the discussion.
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have you heard of the sampling method at all? it is used when the population is too large to measure
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Why do you think it lacks validity? In many countries, burning effigies of politicians (and bras and flags as noted above) is an accepted and extremely routine form of non-violent protest, people don't bat an eyelid there, so why should religious books be any more privileged?

Religion is bullsh!t anyway
I don't know what countries you have in mind as accepting the burning of flags and effigies of politicians. But in case you have Libya in your mind, go to Tripoli and try to burn an effigy of Colonel Khaddafi and a Libyan flag. In case you have Iran in your mind, go to Tehran and try to burn effigies of Mr Ahmedinejad and Ali Khamenei plus an Iranian flag. You then will learn whether people "bat an eyelid there"
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  #113  
Old 08.11.2010, 22:45
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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There was a little flurry of book burning in Britain in the eighties, too, which was quite entertaining for a while:

I in Foyle's read about two pages of his book, and concluded that the best thing to do with the stuff would be to use it either for preparing Cervelats or arranging a good barbecue !
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  #114  
Old 08.11.2010, 22:48
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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I don't know what countries you have in mind as accepting the burning of flags
Well, there are no laws against it in England or Scotland, and it is constitutionally protected in the United States, to name just three countries...
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  #115  
Old 08.11.2010, 22:51
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Provocation should be hindered by the legal arm of the state as it represents a risk for civil peace.

I agree with this. It is needless provocation. For a continent that has gone through centuries of slaughter over religion, I think it is right that a law be in place to remind people of the history of this place. Mind you, the slaughter of Jews not very long ago, and the slaughter of Bosniaks was even more recent. Enough already!
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  #116  
Old 08.11.2010, 23:03
swissbob
 
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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... or those who have run out of tinder for the barbecue.

It's a great way to attract attention without actually causing direct physical harm to anyone. It's like flag burning and bra burning - it makes an entertaining spectacle, then we can all go home for a cup of tea.

And if they've actually bought the books they're burning, then everybody benefits!

It's better than tipping over cars and smashing shop windows, surely?
Somehow I can't picture you warming your hands on a fascist bonfire .

The written word is man's greatest achievement. Without it we would still be living in caves.

Cars and shop windows are just things. Flags are just symbols of often changing political boundaries.

Books are knowledge. I wouldn't burn a book written by my worst enemy (not that Graham Ferris, Class 3, Ebbw Vale Grammer School was ever capable of writing a book).
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  #117  
Old 08.11.2010, 23:10
economisto
 
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Pleasure. Not sure though which "area" you refer to... about the political situation (which I did not respond to actually) or the lack of effective argumentative skills (which was in fact my point)?

If the latter, then we see this thread began with an inclination towards a discussion of holy texts and the freedom to express opinion against them in light of a recent event in Bern. However, the first reply lacks any grounded argument (it asks questions to which the answers are provided in news link, then makes an obscure comparison to JDW). Where the said comment should've been ignored at best it becomes the focus of subsequent replies. Therein lies the fault.

Made worse by generalizations such as: my friends are ___ and they hate all people of x-religion, therefore all people of that culture must hate x-religion. Or lack of validity such as: we're all allowed to have an opinion so there's nothing wrong with burning a holy text.

All I mean to say is that it's a shame. I don't claim to be "clearly logical" on the original topic, but I would have liked to read genuine political argument on the matter.
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Hey! That was me! The comparison to JDW wasn't obscure - it might have been irrelevant though. It wasn't. My point was that there are a load of religions and a load of people who get unpredictably offended against a variety of things. Further, my point was that curtailing the rights of others in order to protect the feelings of a variety of people in this way is absurd.
I feel that this is a grounded argument.
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  #118  
Old 08.11.2010, 23:11
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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The written word is man's greatest achievement. Without it we would still be living in caves.... Books are knowledge.
But books are also propaganda, misinformation, repositories of hatred. By burning a book, a protester is saying that he objects to the ideology proposed by the book, without actually physically hurting anyone who follows that ideology.

It's not a form of protest I can imagine myself choosing (and if anyone lays a finger on a single volume in my library, I'll stick him on a bloody bonfire), but I can see how it can be a powerful, visually spectacular and non-violent statement of objection.

Better a Bible than a churchful of Christians, better a Koran than a mosqueful of Muslims.
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  #119  
Old 08.11.2010, 23:12
Niranjan
 
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Books are knowledge. I wouldn't burn a book written by my worst enemy
Would you be up in arms if I burn, say Gulliver's Travels or The Three Little Pigs or Alice in Wonderland? How is burning a religious book any different?
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  #120  
Old 08.11.2010, 23:16
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Re: Hindus arrested for plot to burn the bible and koran on the Bundesplatz

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Would you be up in arms if I burn, say Gulliver's Travels or The Three Little Pigs or Alice in Wonderland?
I suspect he would, if I understand his argument correctly.
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