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  #181  
Old 17.11.2010, 09:59
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I think you're confusing SVP with PNOS..
Not at all - many SVP members are also members of the PNOS
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  #182  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:04
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Not at all - many SVP members are also members of the PNOS
And I have met many SVP-supporting Swiss who have never expressed an opinion that all foreigners and naturalised Swiss should be deported. On the contrary, one of my friends was delighted for me when we got our naturalisation. The only thing one can say with certainty is that the SVP has a very broad range of support. I think also as a general rule, the further west one goes, the less extreme the SVP/UDC become.
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  #183  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:04
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Sort of a point I was trying to make. Zero tolerance always has exceptions, it shouldn't happen to reasonable people, only unreasonable people.
Good point.
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  #184  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:05
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Iím not saying discrimination is good but Iím saying if a certain nationality always causes problems within bar or disco then it is understandable that the owners decides not to do business with them.
"A certain nationality" doesn't always cause trouble. Individuals of a certain nationality do, while others don't.

I know that insurance companies (especially those for car insurance) charge more if people are of certain nationalities. This has so far been tolerated as the companies say that this is a risk calculation. Also, they don't exclude Albanians (to name one of the groups they charge more from), they just ask for more cash. I think even this is discrimination and should be outlawed.

Same goes for health insurance: women who are in child-bearing age, pay higher premiums, but smokers don't -> Clear discrimination.
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  #185  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:07
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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And I have met many SVP-supporting Swiss who have never expressed an opinion that all foreigners and naturalised Swiss should be deported. On the contrary, one of my friends was delighted for me when we got our naturalisation. The only thing one can say with certainty is that the SVP has a very broad range of support. I think also as a general rule, the further west one goes, the less extreme the SVP/UDC become.
True, most of the extremists within the SVP live in the greater Zurich area. Unfortunately, those are the ones that set the agenda. personally know several SVP members (unavoidable in a 150-people village) from our local community who are racist to the extent of Naziism. Two of them are heavy-weights in the Gemeinderat.
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  #186  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:16
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Playing devils advocate, but which violent crimes? When does your intolerance of violence turn you into the more violent criminal?

Would you take a playground fight and lock up the protagonist? Sibling rivalry? a drunken fight where all is forgotten in the morning?

Will zero tolerance be applied to the enforcers? If a police officer is found to have used excessive force on an innocent suspect, would they suffer the same consequences as any other thug? How will they be effective if not allowed to do so?

There are laws that define these, and courts to rule on cases.

This initiative came about because the courts have been reluctant to apply the law in full. A problem occurs when courts do not apply the full extent of law, corruption sets in, and credibility is lost. Laws already exist for the expulsion of criminal foreigners, as well as ruling on violent crimes. They just need to be applied.
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  #187  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:21
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Being selective on who can immigrate and at what conditions; cracking down on illegal labor practices; educating children at home and at school IMHO is what could start to make a difference....
These two points are in line with this initiative.


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while deporting criminals makes sense to a certain degree, one thing has to be clear: the SVP wants to get rid of all foreign nationals and naturalized Swiss citizens. the upcoming vote is just a one step in that direction.
err... this strikes me as paranoia.
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  #188  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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This initiative came about because the courts have been reluctant to apply the law in full. A problem occurs when courts do not apply the full extent of law, corruption sets in, and credibility is lost. Laws already exist for the expulsion of criminal foreigners, as well as ruling on violent crimes. They just need to be applied.
The most important aspect in Swiss law (as governed by the constitution) is the principle of commensurability. This requires the judges to examine each and every case individually, take the personal circumstances of each individual into account and rule accordingly. The SVP initiative undermines this principle by imposing a catalogue of crimes that will automatically lead to the deportation of individuals and whole families. Instead of having the right to be judged as an individual, you'll be judged as a catalog-item. This is wrong, unconstitutional and unfair.
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  #189  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:29
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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err... this strikes me as paranoia.
yes, most SVP members are paranoid. Just look at their posters. The SVPs whole party agenda solely aims at getting rid of as many foreigners as possible as quickly as possible.
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  #190  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Same goes for health insurance: women who are in child-bearing age, pay higher premiums, but smokers don't -> Clear discrimination.
One is going to create more people that will need to be cared for through in itself and expensive proceedure while the other is going to be in in the ground contributing to agriculture soon.
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  #191  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:32
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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yes, most SVP members are paranoid. Just look at their posters. The SVPs whole party agenda solely aims at getting rid of as many foreigners as possible as quickly as possible.
No, this strikes me as paranoia. Show me where the SVP says that, then I'll believe you.
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  #192  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:36
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No, this strikes me as paranoia. Show me where the SVP says that, then I'll believe you.
I know what you meant. Tell me where the SVP says it ain't so and I'll believe you. We both know that most SVP voters are racists - and that's why they vote SVP. Of course, they don't go about announcing that publicly, as that would land them in court.

Last edited by dawiz; 17.11.2010 at 10:50. Reason: Edit: I take the "and you" back and apologize - didn't come out the way I meant it.
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  #193  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:39
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yes BUT....

* as someone esle has pointed out, it still doesn't help the waiter, or whoever got was on the wrong side of the swiss student's punches (BTW I had forgotten about the three kids who went on a rampage in Germany. So much for the *foreigners* causing problems)

* the whole issue of "safety" is a farce. So many local kids get into serious trouble, beating up each other, taking it out on adults as well. And I'll skip the whole issue of hooliganism (try getting trapped between hockey factions...ugh!) - in most cases, again, it is *locals* who are prone to this violence.
Being selective on who can immigrate and at what conditions; cracking down on illegal labor practices; educating children at home and at school IMHO is what could start to make a difference....

* At the end of the day "someone" is manipulating (again) a shallow public opinion, and tickling popular resentment themes, out of pure opportunistic calculus. I'm really stumped when people with a better education fail to see through this game... :-(

Peace

Paul


I agree with most of what you write. I agree the Swiss arenít better than any other nationality. Yes the SVP are opportunistic and I donít support their initiative.
I find it hard though to understand why anyone should be against the counter initiative. You agree Italy are within their rights to ban the Swiss thugs. I also feel Germany should ban the brats in Munich as well. I feel any country are within their rights to ban serious criminals of foreign nationalities. I feel to say no to the counter initiative your saying Switzerland should be obliged to keep more rapists, murderers, thugs than they need to. Why should they? You agree with the main point of the initiative. Everything that comes after the but needs talking about but I donít think itís relevant on Sunday.
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  #194  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:43
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I know what you meant. Tell me where the SVP says it ain't so and I'll believe you. We both know that most SVP voters are racists - and that's why they (and you?) vote SVP. Of course, they don't go about announcing that publicly, as that would land them in court.
But you can't make sweeping judgements like that, as I pointed aout above.
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  #195  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:44
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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"A certain nationality" doesn't always cause trouble. Individuals of a certain nationality do, while others don't.

I know that insurance companies (especially those for car insurance) charge more if people are of certain nationalities. This has so far been tolerated as the companies say that this is a risk calculation. Also, they don't exclude Albanians (to name one of the groups they charge more from), they just ask for more cash. I think even this is discrimination and should be outlawed.

Same goes for health insurance: women who are in child-bearing age, pay higher premiums, but smokers don't -> Clear discrimination.

Sorry. I agree, I badly formulated it. As I said it is unfair and I would prefere that it wouldn't happen but I feel it is also understandable why it happens.
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  #196  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:47
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I feel to say no to the counter initiative your saying Switzerland should be obliged to keep more rapists, murderers, thugs than they need to. Why should they?
They don't - I'm saying no to both initiatives because I believe the current laws already allow for criminals to be deported if a judge thinks that's necessary. Hundreds of individuals have been deported over the last couple of years on these grounds. And in this country, it's still the judges who decide who can stay and who gets booted and not the angry mob / SVP thugs.

The government was forced to launch the counter-initiative because they were concerned that the SVP's initiative would push the party's general anti-foreigner policies even further into the Swiss legal system, radicalizing the whole legal process. The counter-initiative is simply an attempt to mitigate the damage the SVP would cause if the voter can't choose a slightly more moderate approach - but it's far from being a solution I could live with.
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  #197  
Old 17.11.2010, 11:02
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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They don't - I'm saying no to both initiatives because I believe the current laws already allow for criminals to be deported if a judge thinks that's necessary. Hundreds of individuals have been deported over the last couple of years on these grounds. And in this country, it's still the judges who decide who can stay and who gets booted and not the angry mob / SVP thugs.

The government was forced to launch the counter-initiative because they were concerned that the SVP's initiative would push the party's general anti-foreigner policies even further into the Swiss legal system, radicalizing the whole legal process. The counter-initiative is simply an attempt to mitigate the damage the SVP would cause if the voter can't choose a slightly more moderate approach - but it's far from being a solution I could live with.

Fair enough. A well reasoned answer. We'll still have to agree to disagree though and I'm gonna leave it at that
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  #198  
Old 17.11.2010, 11:12
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I know what you meant. Tell me where the SVP says it ain't so and I'll believe you. We both know that most SVP voters are racists - and that's why they vote SVP. Of course, they don't go about announcing that publicly, as that would land them in court.
Well, no. I think I made several hundreds of anti-SVP posts here, but: The SVP is far more complex than for example the French FN, where I would immediately agree that they are all racist. The SVP is a traditional "farmers" party - working class people in rural areas traditionally voted for them for decades. This explains some parts of their positions, for example the strict anti-EU ones: The farmers fear nothing more than losing the subsidies so anything anti-EU works. (Funnily enough is this position diametral against all other SVP business positions where they want "as free markets as possible"...). These rural working class voters - by far the biggest portion of the SVP support - are surely conservative and protectionist and have an over average amount of xenophobia - same is true for the same part of the societies of most other countries. But they are not racists.
The really strong positions, from anit-Muslim hate campaigns to the current ones are from less traditional parts of the SVP, especially the urban parts in Zurich and Basel. There the party has a small group of leaders that are populists - unfortunately quite good at it as well - and a basis of young under-achievers. These guys are unhappy about their personal situation and instead of blaming it on themselves or their education, they like scapegoats - they are the same idiots as in the FN in France, NPD in Germany and so on. They are the "dangerous" part of the SVP. So in short: The vast majority are pretty normal and boring people, many of which vote for the party for decades even if they do not agree to the extreme positions of the Zurich part... but they do vote and this gives the party 30%.
I find it a shame that the other parties do not manage to respond to the SVP for years... it cannot be that hard to attack those obviously wrong and populist positions in a way that normal people understand and agree (in other words: Exactly not the artist meeting in the Kunsthaus of the last week, but something for the "not so academic" people who would otherwise vote SVP...)
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  #199  
Old 17.11.2010, 11:18
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Either way, we can't make it right for everybody. Our prisons are up to 70% full of foreigners. It won't hurt to have the possibility to send some of them back home without a process, and a large amount of our tax money inside the treasury.
Sorry to chop up your post but this is an important point & seems most unclear.

Is the proposal to expel criminals without serving a prison term first - a get out of jail free card?
Or will they serve their prison term first which will not reduce the prison population.

& please do not drag up the argument about prison populations being reduced at some future time because of the effect of most criminals repeating crimes without you quoting any supporting statistics.

Firstly many criminals are expelled today so do not repeat crimes here & secondly the demographic figures show most crimes are committed by younger people which also does not support the "repeat crime" hypothesis.
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Old 17.11.2010, 11:22
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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err... this strikes me as paranoia.
Yes. Ironically the SVP needs foreigners to fuel its campaigns.

They do, however, want to make things difficult for foreigners.
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