Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #201  
Old 17.11.2010, 11:31
10:30's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Basel
Posts: 472
Groaned at 5 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 509 Times in 194 Posts
10:30 has a reputation beyond repute10:30 has a reputation beyond repute10:30 has a reputation beyond repute10:30 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Maybe it's just pissing in the wind to try to make a rational argument here, but here goes...

Some (CHexos, Longbyt) have brought up the issue of the "Swiss" foreigners, who I believe will really be the victims if this initiative passes. Those who are born here, have lived their entire lives here, have studied here: are they not Swiss? If they are still living here with a C-permit, for whatever reason, they are subject to deportation.

Dodging the army is not the only reason to avoid getting the Swiss passport - if so, there would be no women in this situation. Many people have grown up in two countries and therefore lack the required number of residency years to get a passport. Others are put in a position of giving up another passport which they might need (for work, for travel, etc). Some have just not got around to it.

To the Swiss on this forum: these are your neighbors! You work with them, you talk with them on the street, you certainly know someone who you consider to be Swiss who doesn't actually have a passport. These are the people (not only the non-integrated gangsters) who you would be putting at risk of expulsion under this new law.

Oh no. Just the criminals, right? Ok, well, who is a criminal? (BTW, Could someone please post exactly which infractions would subject someone to deportation?) If someone fights back in a bar fight, leading to injuries - will they be deported? If someone is injured in a car crash in which the driver was speeding - will they be deported? How about drunk driving?

My point is, sending people "back" to a country that they may have never lived in for an offense that, while serious, *could* happen to someone who is just a normal person who slipped up is not a good solution. To be sure, there are real criminals in this country, and they should be dealt with accordingly, but playing political games with the lives of your friends and neighbors is inhumane at best.

More comprehensive and realistic foreigner politics are needed before introducing an initiative with such wide-sweeping ramifications on peoples' lives.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank 10:30 for this useful post:
  #202  
Old 17.11.2010, 11:34
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,553
Groaned at 49 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I'm imagining two people in a tense situation in a bar.

One is under threat of expulsion from Switzerland, the other isn't.

One of them might be able to push things . . .
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Gastro Gnome for this useful post:
  #203  
Old 17.11.2010, 11:38
Txell's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Basel
Posts: 62
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts
Txell has no particular reputation at present
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Interesting debate, indeed...

I was wondering, though, what happens in the cases in which the countries of origin won't accept the deported citizens?
Reply With Quote
  #204  
Old 17.11.2010, 11:41
eddiejc1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Derwood, MD USA
Posts: 1,005
Groaned at 22 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 684 Times in 372 Posts
eddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputation
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post
while deporting criminals makes sense to a certain degree, one thing has to be clear: the SVP wants to get rid of all foreign nationals and naturalized Swiss citizens. the upcoming vote is just a one step in that direction.
Quote:
View Post




err... this strikes me as paranoia.
Didn't I read in this forum about some SVP proposal that would delay for years the time that a foreign national could apply for Swiss citizenship if they got a parking or speeding ticket? If that's true, then I'd say certain members of the SVP are against any foreigners becoming naturalized.
Reply With Quote
  #205  
Old 17.11.2010, 11:43
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: OOO
Posts: 3,724
Groaned at 79 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 1,683 Times in 1,017 Posts
Sada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post
I'm imagining two people in a tense situation in a bar.

One is under threat of expulsion from Switzerland, the other isn't.

One of them might be able to push things . . .
See now. What a mess.
Reply With Quote
  #206  
Old 17.11.2010, 11:46
HashBrown's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,289
Groaned at 68 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 3,015 Times in 1,340 Posts
HashBrown has a reputation beyond reputeHashBrown has a reputation beyond reputeHashBrown has a reputation beyond reputeHashBrown has a reputation beyond reputeHashBrown has a reputation beyond reputeHashBrown has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I think other countries, especially European ones, will laugh when CH deports people back to their country of origin for tram fines.
Reply With Quote
  #207  
Old 17.11.2010, 11:47
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,810
Groaned at 611 Times in 517 Posts
Thanked 21,740 Times in 11,420 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post
Interesting debate, indeed...

I was wondering, though, what happens in the cases in which the countries of origin won't accept the deported citizens?
Then the citizens stay here of course
Reply With Quote
  #208  
Old 17.11.2010, 12:21
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post
I'm imagining two people in a tense situation in a bar.

One is under threat of expulsion from Switzerland, the other isn't.

One of them might be able to push things . . .

You just gave me a great idea for scoring a drink or two.

This leads me to think foreigners will have to learn conflict resolution in a hurry. Sounds horrible, but not the worse thing to learn.
Reply With Quote
  #209  
Old 17.11.2010, 12:34
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post

Oh no. Just the criminals, right? Ok, well, who is a criminal? (BTW, Could someone please post exactly which infractions would subject someone to deportation?) If someone fights back in a bar fight, leading to injuries - will they be deported? If someone is injured in a car crash in which the driver was speeding - will they be deported? How about drunk driving?

For lack on information, or disinformation, some have taken this to a level of hysteria. This is not a pogrom of foreigners in Switzerland. Even the SVP, who some imagine as an incarnation of nazis, acknowledge that there are cases where deportation cannot be applied.

If you haven't already seen the text of the intiative, it specifically mentions:
-Sexual Assault
-Robbery
-Human Trafficking
-Drug Trafficking
-Burglary
-Defrauding the social services system.
-Some vague idea about repeat violent offenders

Now, for anyone to be determined to have committed any of these, they would have to have been tried, no? In otherwords, they will still get a fair trial.

Anyone see parking tickets on there?
Reply With Quote
  #210  
Old 17.11.2010, 12:50
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,553
Groaned at 49 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post
For lack on information, or disinformation, some have taken this to a level of hysteria. This is not a pogrom of foreigners in Switzerland. Even the SVP, who some imagine as an incarnation of nazis, acknowledge that there are cases where deportation cannot be applied.

If you haven't already seen the text of the intiative, it specifically mentions:
-Sexual Assault
-Robbery
-Human Trafficking
-Drug Trafficking
-Burglary
-Defrauding the social services system.
-Some vague idea about repeat violent offenders

Now, for anyone to be determined to have committed any of these, they would have to have been tried, no? In otherwords, they will still get a fair trial.

Anyone see parking tickets on there?
Now why I wonder would you include benefit fraud but not large-scale financial fraud?
Reply With Quote
  #211  
Old 17.11.2010, 12:50
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post
I know what you meant. Tell me where the SVP says it ain't so and I'll believe you. We both know that most SVP voters are racists - and that's why they vote SVP. Of course, they don't go about announcing that publicly, as that would land them in court.
Of course you've met all the SVP voters, right?



Quote:
View Post
The SVP is far more complex than for example the French FN, where I would immediately agree that they are all racist. The SVP is a traditional "farmers" party - working class people in rural areas traditionally voted for them for decades. This explains some parts of their positions, for example the strict anti-EU ones:

It is even more complex than that. The SVP garners support from social conservatives from ALL walks of lives, including non conservative Swiss who are simply anti-government.

The SVP's platform is that Swiss democracy is structured in a way that the people's will takes first priority. They purport to represent the Swiss people's interest in situations where the Swiss government may try legislate without the consent of Swiss people. This speaks much more about a basic principle of Swiss democracy than the interest of a particular demographics. And no, they are not all racist farmers, but yes, they are Swiss citizens.
Reply With Quote
  #212  
Old 17.11.2010, 12:52
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,553
Groaned at 49 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I'm sure this question has already been asked, but will this affect Roman Polanski?

I guess not, as the crime didn't take place in Switzerland.
Reply With Quote
  #213  
Old 17.11.2010, 12:52
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post
Now why I wonder would you include benefit fraud but not large-scale financial fraud?

I included it because it was in the text of the initiative?

But as for why they included it in there, I believe it is because of historical abuses of the social services system by foreigners.
Reply With Quote
  #214  
Old 17.11.2010, 12:54
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,553
Groaned at 49 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post
I included it because it was in the text of the initiative?

But as for why they included it in there, I believe it is because of historical abuses of the social services system by foreigners.
The question is more why they haven't included large-scale financial fraud. It would have been liable to lead to embarrassment I suspect.
Reply With Quote
  #215  
Old 17.11.2010, 12:59
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post
The question is more why they haven't included large-scale financial fraud. It would have been liable to lead to embarrassment I suspect.

They included fraud, which does include large scale financial fraud.
Reply With Quote
  #216  
Old 17.11.2010, 13:02
HashBrown's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,289
Groaned at 68 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 3,015 Times in 1,340 Posts
HashBrown has a reputation beyond reputeHashBrown has a reputation beyond reputeHashBrown has a reputation beyond reputeHashBrown has a reputation beyond reputeHashBrown has a reputation beyond reputeHashBrown has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post
The question is more why they haven't included large-scale financial fraud. It would have been liable to lead to embarrassment I suspect.
Er, because large scale financial fraud is the basis for the wealth of this country.
Reply With Quote
  #217  
Old 17.11.2010, 13:06
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post
Er, because large scale financial fraud is the basis for the wealth of this country.
I'm so glad idiots like you can't vote.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at for this post:
  #218  
Old 17.11.2010, 13:16
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,810
Groaned at 611 Times in 517 Posts
Thanked 21,740 Times in 11,420 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post
Now why I wonder would you include benefit fraud but not large-scale financial fraud?
Maybe they did a study & found that large-scale financial fraud was not a "foreign" criminal issue?

Benefit fraud is not defined so could be for an amount less than a parking ticket & then an automatic bye bye since the judge will no longer have discretion under this proposal.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #219  
Old 17.11.2010, 13:18
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,553
Groaned at 49 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Quote:
View Post
They included fraud, which does include large scale financial fraud.

The initiative text on the page you linked to only mentions welfare fraud, not, for example, banking fraud.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Gastro Gnome for this useful post:
  #220  
Old 17.11.2010, 13:21
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,553
Groaned at 49 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

The main issue for me is still the secondi.

A person could have been born here, grown up here and schooled here but still be expelled to a country they've never even visited and of which they don't speak the language.

This is at first glance sounds inhumane, but as we've discussed previously it also breaks various international laws.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Gastro Gnome for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters] chemgoddess Swiss politics/news 600 30.09.2011 20:30
Expulsion of jobless EU workers backed lobd Permits/visas/government 60 11.06.2010 06:59
Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative] Gastro Gnome Swiss politics/news 89 16.12.2009 23:07
Basel's free health initiative mimi1981 Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness 2 23.05.2008 17:02


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0