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Old 17.11.2010, 13:22
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The initiative text on the page you linked to only mentions welfare fraud, not, for example, banking fraud.
Slowly repeat: Tax dodging is not a crime in Switzerland.

So no matter what criminals are included, tax dodgers cannot be on the list... and the real tax fraud (which would include to fake documents or similar instead of "forgetting" to declare something...) is more the exception.
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  #222  
Old 17.11.2010, 13:23
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The initiative text on the page you linked to only mentions welfare fraud, not, for example, banking fraud.
Yeah. The inclusion of that bothers me. I understand what they are targetting there. But the inclusion of that was not very well thought out. This initiative might just lose because of that point.
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  #223  
Old 17.11.2010, 13:27
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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They included fraud, which does include large scale financial fraud.
Where?
I see fraud mentioned only for the "Social system"; please inform us exactly where else you see fraud mentioned - or are you bending the truth ever so slightly?
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  #224  
Old 17.11.2010, 13:29
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Where?
I see fraud mentioned only for the "Social system"; please inform us exactly where else you see fraud mentioned - or are you bending the truth ever so slightly?

No, no. I saw Betrueger somewhere, and assumed it covers all. But rest assured, what ever truth I may appear to bend can be refuted by fact. I was wrong about that.
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  #225  
Old 17.11.2010, 13:40
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No, no. I saw Betrueger somewhere, and assumed it covers all. But rest assured, what ever truth I may appear to bend can be refuted by fact. I was wrong about that.
Pity the people effected by the proposal you are voting for will still be expelled even if they stand up & say "Sorry, made a mistake, will not do it again"
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  #226  
Old 17.11.2010, 13:42
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Slowly repeat: Tax dodging is not a crime in Switzerland.

So no matter what criminals are included, tax dodgers cannot be on the list... and the real tax fraud (which would include to fake documents or similar instead of "forgetting" to declare something...) is more the exception.
That is not a problem, (not tax dodging per se, that is a problem), as the Gegenvorschlag proves, you can very well in include fraud (and tax fraud).

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Yeah. The inclusion of that bothers me. I understand what they are targetting there. But the inclusion of that was not very well thought out. This initiative might just lose because of that point.
The text does not even mention fraud actually (clearly defined, mentionned in the Gegenvorschlag), but mentions "missbräuchlicher Bezug von Leistungen" (having received payments in an abusive way, horrible translateion by myself) which is even worse, as it is not well defined and, depending on the definition used, starts well before the point where fraud is commited=a total black box.
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  #227  
Old 18.11.2010, 03:42
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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So you've been subject to unjust discrimination, complained it's not fair and yet seem willing to try to justify the attitude? Staggering.

"Man hands on misery to man..."
Much depends on how members of the "ethnic majority" react. I still remember when my parents, when my brother and me both were on holidays, went to the "Osterwald Restaurant" in Seefeld for a nice meal. But just after they had ordered they witnessed how a nice and well behaved Black got refused service. My mum, known to be swiftly on 100 Volts !, got furious, stood up, approached the "service" and told them her opinion in a choice of words which lead my father to have the lists of good lawyers ready on his desk for weeks, and then took my father OUT. As they observed, many other people followed. AND in the following days, the position of Osterwald was discussed in the press. The company here collapsed half a year later !

There was a very nice restaurant on the edge of Bahnhofplatz/Löwenstrasse, but at one day they decided that "Arab looking folks" and "similar Mediterraneans" no longer were to be served. I on a visit there was told by a waitress I knew that she could not serve me. The restaurant a year later got sold to the present, in fact quite nice, Chinese restaurant.
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  #228  
Old 18.11.2010, 03:47
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I think other countries, especially European ones, will laugh when CH deports people back to their country of origin for tram fines.
Negative ! No extradition due to minor offences. Both on the basis of the conditions of the initiative and on the basis of already existing laws and legal principles (which stay valid).
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  #229  
Old 18.11.2010, 03:51
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Er, because large scale financial fraud is the basis for the wealth of this country.
Are you sure that most "large scale financial frauds" have not been committed by some greedy foreigners

anyway, the wealth of this country is based on both export industry and inbound tourism and not on the shady sports of some CH and non-CH gnomes
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  #230  
Old 18.11.2010, 11:22
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Yesterday evening I had the mouth opening and dropped jaw moment when watching the "real Fat mouthed Blocher" in action upon the SFI edition of Tagesshau broadcast at 18.00h.
True to form, the moderator expressed at the end of the show - no telephone calls or emails are allowed in response.

I am English, lived here for 12 years and my wife an Italian of some 35 years residence.

I have read this forum regularly, but now I am moved to express anger.

Whilst living in any country of course you must obey and abide by its laws.

I am 100% law abiding citizen.
I originate from London, so am aware of the effects of crime on a community.

However, both myself and my wife have had enough of the 'underlying' true colours of the Swiss. Completely communicated last evening by the Fat Mouth Pot Bellied Blocher.

We have many friends here, mainly of Italian, Russian, Turkish and CIS decent. All (as far as I am aware) are also 100% law abiding citizens.

We all agree, build a huge great wall around the Swiss border, remove the priviledges of EFTA, withdraw your money from their banks and leave.

We have been considering our move on and out, but last nights attitude, which I strongly feel reflects the views of many Swiss Nationals, (although most would not say it) has been the deciding factor.

We are off within the next weeks ! Had enough.

Oh, and before I sign off, dont trust em, not one of them

Sorry, but I just had to have a say.
N
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  #231  
Old 18.11.2010, 11:40
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Agree with him or not, but the above poster's indignation is only one small example of the polarizing effects these campaigns have on the Swiss society. Some get fed up and leave, taking their experience and training with them, others don't have that option and turn instead to radicalism and minority-centric attitudes marked by persecution and persecution complexes.

Any expat who has been around for awhile knows someone who has left because they were not made to feel welcome in this country.
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  #232  
Old 18.11.2010, 11:47
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Didn't see the show mentioned, but all I read was he doesn't like Blocher.



Well, neither do I and I suspect the majority of Swiss. Blocher isn't Switzerland.


But I do like what he said:

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Whilst living in any country of course you must obey and abide by its laws.
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  #233  
Old 18.11.2010, 23:55
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Seems to have gone a bit quiet now; this thread generated a lot of interest & posts.

I was expecting to see some stronger arguments for the ausschaffungsinitiative.

So far I saw
  • Improve public safety; I am not sure how or why this would? People will only be expelled after committing crimes, not before, so how will safety be improved - I mean same number of crimes committed? There may be a reduction in criminals repeating crimes but I did not see any figures quoted that show repeat crimes are a big issue here.
  • Deterrence ; criminals already face the possibility (& reality) of expulsion so why would this proposal change or increase any deterrent effect?
  • Prisons ; reduce costs to Swiss tax payers because criminals are expelled & not sent to prison.
    So far as I can find out this is simply incorrect; the proposal is criminals will serve their prison terms (with same Swiss taxpayer costs as now) as before so no cost saving.
I am open to any other logical arguments & correction.

Overall I think the weakness of this proposal is that if successful it will not effect the number of "first time" serious crimes committed. It will only have an impact in those cases where a convicted criminal is expelled and this prevents them continuing to commit serious crimes. I do not know if there are enough repeat crimes to make it all worthwhile.

Last edited by marton; 18.11.2010 at 23:56. Reason: grammar
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  #234  
Old 19.11.2010, 01:40
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Deterrence ; criminals already face the possibility (& reality) of expulsion so why would this proposal change or increase any deterrent effect?
That would be one of my biggest questions.
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  #235  
Old 19.11.2010, 03:05
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yesterday evening I had the mouth opening and dropped jaw moment when watching the "real Fat mouthed Blocher" in action upon the SFI edition of Tagesshau broadcast at 18.00h.
True to form, the moderator expressed at the end of the show - no telephone calls or emails are allowed in response.

I am English, lived here for 12 years and my wife an Italian of some 35 years residence.

I have read this forum regularly, but now I am moved to express anger.

Whilst living in any country of course you must obey and abide by its laws.

I am 100% law abiding citizen.
I originate from London, so am aware of the effects of crime on a community.

However, both myself and my wife have had enough of the 'underlying' true colours of the Swiss. Completely communicated last evening by the Fat Mouth Pot Bellied Blocher.

We have many friends here, mainly of Italian, Russian, Turkish and CIS decent. All (as far as I am aware) are also 100% law abiding citizens.

We all agree, build a huge great wall around the Swiss border, remove the priviledges of EFTA, withdraw your money from their banks and leave.

We have been considering our move on and out, but last nights attitude, which I strongly feel reflects the views of many Swiss Nationals, (although most would not say it) has been the deciding factor.

We are off within the next weeks ! Had enough.

Oh, and before I sign off, dont trust em, not one of them

Sorry, but I just had to have a say.
N
You write as if Blocher was the leader of Switzerland, while he is only the defacto leader of a 25% political party. Popular votes in the past of course have at times be won by 10% parties. And if the SF1 states that phone-calls or emails to them on the subject are not to be handled, it makes some sense as the SVP with joy would jump onto an occasion to have some additional discussion going. And Blocher would have loved it.
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  #236  
Old 19.11.2010, 04:10
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Is this the news programme which upset alfaN?

http://www.videoportal.sf.tv/video?i...0-cad648340fcc
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  #237  
Old 19.11.2010, 10:30
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Like this one:
- voting Yes for the SVP initiative: "Foreigner, that's a criminal offense"
- voting No for the SP tax initiative: "Unless they are rich"
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  #238  
Old 19.11.2010, 11:23
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Seems to have gone a bit quiet now; this thread generated a lot of interest & posts.

I was expecting to see some stronger arguments for the ausschaffungsinitiative.

So far I saw
  • Improve public safety; I am not sure how or why this would? People will only be expelled after committing crimes, not before, so how will safety be improved - I mean same number of crimes committed? There may be a reduction in criminals repeating crimes but I did not see any figures quoted that show repeat crimes are a big issue here.
  • Deterrence ; criminals already face the possibility (& reality) of expulsion so why would this proposal change or increase any deterrent effect?
  • Prisons ; reduce costs to Swiss tax payers because criminals are expelled & not sent to prison.
    So far as I can find out this is simply incorrect; the proposal is criminals will serve their prison terms (with same Swiss taxpayer costs as now) as before so no cost saving.
I am open to any other logical arguments & correction.

Overall I think the weakness of this proposal is that if successful it will not effect the number of "first time" serious crimes committed. It will only have an impact in those cases where a convicted criminal is expelled and this prevents them continuing to commit serious crimes. I do not know if there are enough repeat crimes to make it all worthwhile.
In all seriousness, you may have swayed me. I was considering voting for the counter-initiative, but you've laid it out pretty well. There seems to be no logical reason to vote for either project except that it may instill a vague sense of fear in foreign criminals. That's not good enough.
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  #239  
Old 19.11.2010, 11:34
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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In all seriousness, you may have swayed me. I was considering voting for the counter-initiative, but you've laid it out pretty well. There seems to be no logical reason to vote for either project except that it may instill a vague sense of fear in foreign criminals. That's not good enough.
Is Dougal's Breakfast reading this? Look! Actual consequence from discussion!!!
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  #240  
Old 19.11.2010, 13:35
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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In all seriousness, you may have swayed me. I was considering voting for the counter-initiative, but you've laid it out pretty well. There seems to be no logical reason to vote for either project except that it may instill a vague sense of fear in foreign criminals. That's not good enough.
Well as I wrote, I am open to consider more points in favour of these proposals if anybody wants to offer them.

Like everybody else I just saw the headlines & listened to the "soundbites" & thought why not?
But when I dug into it a bit more I could not find good reasons to vote for them.
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