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  #261  
Old 21.11.2010, 14:05
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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During the past 12 months I've collected two speeding tickets, one in Germany the other one on the St Gallen autobahn (120 in 100 zone), and a parking fine. Should I be concerned about being kicked out? Or is that going to be part of the next round of voting? (i.e. if this one passes)

A concerned non-citizen....
Kicked out? Only if you did not pay the fines
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  #262  
Old 21.11.2010, 14:30
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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What do you think might be the consequences, should the expulsion initiative go through? It has been mentioned before that it could set the EU against CH and put in jeopardy all the 1999 reciprocal agreement. Do you believe this to be the case? What else might be at risk IYHO?
Firstly, I think the expulsion initiative will go through, even though it is a shame. Secondly, considered just formally, the relationship between the EU and CH won't be extraordinary affected by the outcome. But it seems to be much worse that attitudes towards foreigners in general might change. Not physically but as a mental change. Swiss people, at least some of them may polarise more than before between 'Swiss' and 'foreigners'. What do you think about it?
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  #263  
Old 22.11.2010, 21:26
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So they are only off the streets afterwards - & what difference does it make to the crime rate whether they are off the streets due to being expelled or because they are in jail.
Swiss save money

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That is actually a backdrop for this initiative. France can't do anything about crime because the criminals already have French citizenship.
Do you actually have data showing this? That is, most of the crimes in France are committed by French people? And what about Switzerland? What percentage of the crimes are committed by Swiss people?

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I'll tell you what brings crime down... economic prosperity.
I might be wrong, but I thought that a noticeable part of Swiss economic prosperity came from all the fat bank accounts of foreigner criminals.

Last edited by jrspet; 22.11.2010 at 22:01. Reason: Merging of successive posts
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  #264  
Old 22.11.2010, 22:04
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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THAT kind of economic crime, I don't mind pursuing. But to punish someone who is simply eeking out a living does not make for a better society.
I'd say that people stealing money from others (usually poorer people) will eventually result in an increase of the violent crimes as well.
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  #265  
Old 22.11.2010, 22:13
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Foreign criminals do not originate from here so why should this country freely put up with the harm they cause?
Am I wrong, or even 3rd, 4th generation foreigners (I can't believe such conditions should be allowed to exist) would be kicked out? And, will please someone tell me, where to?
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  #266  
Old 22.11.2010, 22:20
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Swiss save money
--
Do you actually have data showing this? That is, most of the crimes in France are committed by French people? And what about Switzerland? What percentage of the crimes are committed by Swiss people?
--
I might be wrong, but I thought that a noticeable part of Swiss economic prosperity came from all the fat bank accounts of foreigner criminals.
A) no, Switzerland will not save money, as culprits will first have to serve their sentence and only AFTER this will be sent out
B) you have to make a difference between
-- (1) CH nationals
-- (2) non CH nationals living in CH
-- (3) non CH nationals NOT living in CH

if you take non CH nationals together you have a majority in
some fields

if you however only take either 2 or 3 you are far away from a majority

C) France has a far lower share of foreigners than Switzerland

D) no, the share of the "fat bank accounts of foreigners" (by majority not criminals at all !) in the Swiss economic prosperity is rather minor. Just see that banking as a source of income comes far behind the export industry and the inbound tourism. And even in banks like the UBS, that sector makes up less than 15% of business.

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Firstly, I think the expulsion initiative will go through, even though it is a shame. Secondly, considered just formally, the relationship between the EU and CH won't be extraordinary affected by the outcome. But it seems to be much worse that attitudes towards foreigners in general might change. Not physically but as a mental change. Swiss people, at least some of them may polarise more than before between 'Swiss' and 'foreigners'. What do you think about it?
No, there is hardly a real danger for anything like this. However, the Left will have crocodile-tears in their eyes about the "brutal new law" and many SVPlers will be outraged when finding out that the other laws and constitution articles are still in force.


************************************************** ****************************


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Am I wrong, or even 3rd, 4th generation foreigners (I can't believe such conditions should be allowed to exist) would be kicked out? And, will please someone tell me, where to?
Please abstain from embarking into fiction. The initiative clearly speaks about foreigners and not about either people of foreign origin or about people who were foreigners previously. The CH citizenship can only become invalid if obtained by fraud.

Point 4 of the Initiative makes it clear that the federal legislative has to define the crimes mentioned under point 3a+b (as under point 8) within 5 years.


************************************************** **************

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Am I wrong, or even 3rd, 4th generation foreigners (I can't believe such conditions should be allowed to exist) would be kicked out? And, will please someone tell me, where to?
Please abstain from embarking into fiction. The initiative clearly speaks about foreigners and not about either people of foreign origin or about people who were foreigners previously. The CH citizenship can only become invalid if obtained by fraud.

Point 4 of the Initiative makes it clear that the federal legislative has to define the crimes mentioned under point 3a+b (as under point 8) within 5 years.

Last edited by jrspet; 22.11.2010 at 23:03. Reason: Merging of successive posts
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  #267  
Old 22.11.2010, 23:24
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I had given this some thought, and I am leaning against the SVP's initiative. The initiative is not very well thought through. Three things I do not like about it:

-Inclusion of economic crime. Not the kind of society I want either.
-Automatic deportation. Not likely to be fully implementable, yet it takes away the prerogative of making an intelligent decision.
-SVP political hegemony. I don't really want the SVP to claim victory on this one.

Yet, I do believe that laws need to be toughened to deter crime. This is really my only point of agreement with the initiative.

There was a recent incident in Zug where a man crossed the street in an unsafe way. A little child did as the man did, and followed the man. An 85 year old Swiss woman started to scold the man, who was yes, Serbian. The Serbian man argued back with the woman, and beat her. Witnesses saw him stomping on her while she laid on the ground. They chased him down and had him arrested. I'm sorry, but regardless of the ethnicity of this man, I find this kind of behavior totally unacceptable. And I can't think of any other measures being discussed in regards to situations like this other than this initiative. If it requires instilling more fear in people who have the propensity to do such things, I am totally for sending a clear message that this way of life does not belong here.

So with that, I've decided to lean towards the Gegenvorschlag. This weekend, I will likely send in the vote of "Yes/Yes/Gegenvorschlag".
There was also this German radio announcer in Zurch who was terrorized untl she feared for her life, oh wait...
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  #268  
Old 22.11.2010, 23:27
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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There was also this German radio announcer in Zurch who was terrorized untl she feared for her life, oh wait...
off topic ! off topic ! off topic !
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  #269  
Old 23.11.2010, 00:11
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Am I wrong, or even 3rd, 4th generation foreigners (I can't believe such conditions should be allowed to exist) would be kicked out? And, will please someone tell me, where to?
I know people born here of foreign parents are not automatically Swiss; I do not know if this (not automatically Swiss) also applies to 2nd, 3rd & 4th generation.

So far as I can see from Google 2nd & 3rd generation are not automatically Swiss so would be deported if they were not able to have become Swiss through other routes & if they commit the "correct" crime; unless someone has better facts?

I also found with Google that if people born here were automatically Swiss the percentage of "foreigners" would drop from 22% to 6% - I also do not know if this is completely correct?
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  #270  
Old 23.11.2010, 00:38
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I know people born here of foreign parents are not automatically Swiss; I do not know if this (not automatically Swiss) also applies to 2nd, 3rd & 4th generation.

So far as I can see from Google 2nd & 3rd generation are not automatically Swiss so would be deported if they were not able to have become Swiss through other routes & if they commit the "correct" crime; unless someone has better facts?

I also found with Google that if people born here were automatically Swiss the percentage of "foreigners" would drop from 22% to 6% - I also do not know if this is completely correct?
A) Where somebody was born is irrelevant
B) Yes, theoretically, even a 5th generation "foreigner" might get deported to his "homeland" under the given circumstances
C) your last point cannot be checked as, to say it again, the birthplace is irrelevant and does not matter at all
D) a "foreigner" by CH-laws is somebody who is not CH-citizen !

a really strange side-result of the Initiative will be an increase in applications to get CH citizenship. Why ? Because many fathers who are sure NEVER to become culprits of crime may feel insecure about their sons and so will press forward with the matter ! And let's not forget that you in countries like CH have heaps of people who are "citizens" of their legal country of origin just by paper but not by reality. Many of them wait with their application for CH citizenship until being above 28 in order to evade CH military service (not dangerous, true, but a definite nuisance), an attitude most understandable of course, but now, some of the fathers of the youngsters in question may arrive at different conclusions

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  #271  
Old 23.11.2010, 01:40
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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A)
Please abstain from embarking into fiction. The initiative clearly speaks about foreigners and not about either people of foreign origin or about people who were foreigners previously. The CH citizenship can only become invalid if obtained by fraud.
How does one embark "into" anything, and what part of foreigners don't you understand? 2nd, 3rd, 23rd generation....foreigners. As you rightly point out in a later post. Giff is talking about foreigners, no matter what generation. Your kickslap is unwarranted. AUSGESCHAFFT!!

For those of you who can vote, check this out: http://www.beobachter.ch/justiz-beho...artikel/17078/

Last edited by Shaka; 23.11.2010 at 01:48. Reason: Forgot something
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  #272  
Old 23.11.2010, 01:45
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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How does one embark "into" anything, and what part of foreigners don't you understand? 2nd, 3rd, 23rd generation....foreigners. As you rightly point out in a later post. Giff is talking about foreigners, no matter what generation. Your kickslap is unwarranted. AUSGESCHAFFT!!
what "part of foreigners" should I not understand ?

what generation somebody is and where the person was born does not matter, what matters simply is the citizenship. There is no "kickslap" but simply a reference to realities
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  #273  
Old 23.11.2010, 02:08
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Swiss people, at least some of them may polarise more than before between 'Swiss' and 'foreigners'. What do you think about it?
I can seem them polorising across economic class, but not really because of attitude towards foreigners.



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I'd say that people stealing money from others (usually poorer people) will eventually result in an increase of the violent crimes as well.
No, I have a moral problem with punishment for poor people trying to survive.




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There was also this German radio announcer in Zurch who was terrorized untl she feared for her life, oh wait...
If you have a solution for what to do with criminal Swiss, I'm all ears. I was thinking they should be exilied to an Island... there's a big one in the Pacific, and there are some in the Atlantic too.



I can see how the aftermath of this can be deeper and more entrenched resentment of the Swiss by some foreigners. Some of these same foreigners may become Swiss someday.
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  #274  
Old 23.11.2010, 08:11
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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what "part of foreigners" should I not understand ?

what generation somebody is and where the person was born does not matter, what matters simply is the citizenship. There is no "kickslap" but simply a reference to realities
Yeah...we know all that. That's why Giff talked about FOREIGNERS.
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  #275  
Old 23.11.2010, 08:30
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I also found with Google that if people born here were automatically Swiss the percentage of "foreigners" would drop from 22% to 6% - I also do not know if this is completely correct?
Yes, that math is kinda correct. One big reason Switzerland has a high rate of foreigners is because they don't automatically allow them to naturalize.
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  #276  
Old 23.11.2010, 09:32
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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A) Where somebody was born is irrelevant
Yes, irrelevenat for the proposition, but not irrelevant for a reasonable person. In many countries you become a citizen automatically if you are born there. Others let you wait some years. In CH, I know a (rich) family: the man and the woman moved here in their pre-teens, they lived here all their lives and now have children, these kids are not Swiss. I find it pretty awkward.

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B) Yes, theoretically, even a 5th generation "foreigner" might get deported to his "homeland" under the given circumstances
A good law should take also these "theoretical" issues into account. A person living here with his/her family for the 2/3/4th generation has only CH to call home.
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  #277  
Old 23.11.2010, 09:39
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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A) no, Switzerland will not save money, as culprits will first have to serve their sentence and only AFTER this will be sent out
Oh, this sounds new to me. Maybe I'll read again about the initiative, but maybe you have a direct reference?

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C) France has a far lower share of foreigners than Switzerland
I guess that must be because they give away French passports more easily.

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D) no, the share of the "fat bank accounts of foreigners" (by majority not criminals at all !) in the Swiss economic prosperity is rather minor. Just see that banking as a source of income comes far behind the export industry and the inbound tourism. And even in banks like the UBS, that sector makes up less than 15% of business.
15% of the business of UBS is a huge amount of money I believe. You seem to be pretty informed about this, I only have feelings, maybe you can share a document of some sort?

The rich foreigners (living in their home countries) with fat CH bank accounts are, in the best case, evading the taxes in their country. I call this stealing.
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  #278  
Old 23.11.2010, 10:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

If you have a solution for what to do with criminal Swiss, I'm all ears. I was thinking they should be exilied to an Island... there's a big one in the Pacific, and there are some in the Atlantic too.

How do you know they were Swiss? As far as I heard no one was prosecuted and no passports checked in her situation. However, this leads to my next concern which you've pointed out quite nicely. I just had to change a few things: I can see how the aftermath of this can be deeper and more entrenched of the foreigners by some Swiss. Some of these same Swiss may......hmmm.


I can see how the aftermath of this can be deeper and more entrenched resentment of the Swiss by some foreigners. Some of these same foreigners may become Swiss someday.[/QUOTE]

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  #279  
Old 23.11.2010, 11:16
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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How do you know they were Swiss? As far as I heard no one was prosecuted and no passports checked in her situation. However, this leads to my next concern which you've pointed out quite nicely. I just had to change a few things: I can see how the aftermath of this can be deeper and more entrenched of the foreigners by some Swiss. Some of these same Swiss may......hmmm.
Oh, I think I meant to respond to someone else, not you. But you know... if.... dooooh.....
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  #280  
Old 23.11.2010, 12:13
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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A) ................... Many of them wait with their application for CH citizenship until being above 28 in order to evade CH military service (not dangerous, true, but a definite nuisance), an attitude most understandable of course, but now, some of the fathers of the youngsters in question may arrive at different conclusions
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This is not a reason for mothers & daughters not to apply & they make up roughly 50% of the Swiss born "foreigners" here.
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