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Old 23.11.2010, 21:27
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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A) Where somebody was born is irrelevant

Yes, irrelevenat for the proposition, but not irrelevant for a reasonable person. In many countries you become a citizen automatically if you are born there. Others let you wait some years. In CH, I know a (rich) family: the man and the woman moved here in their pre-teens, they lived here all their lives and now have children, these kids are not Swiss. I find it pretty awkward.
It has nothing to do with reasonability but with the fact that it is completely irrelevent by laws in Switzerland.


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B) Yes, theoretically, even a 5th generation "foreigner" might get deported to his "homeland" under the given circumstances




A good law should take also these "theoretical" issues into account. A person living here with his/her family for the 2/3/4th generation has only CH to call home.
I think that it can be expected that the 2nd or 3rd generation at the latest will become CH citizens, IF they really regard CH as "home". If they do not, they simply ARE foreigners. Again, the constitutions and laws of the Confederation and the Cantons regard the length of stay of foreigners and whether they are 2nd or 3rd or 4th generation immigrants as completely irrelevant. Once again, this is the ruling legal principle here. And is more or less similar in most of Continental Europe (Napoleonic Law System.

What you proclaim to be "good" and "reasonable" is neither but just the legal principles in most of the Commonwealth of Nations and in the USA. But is not regarded as either outside these "zones"
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  #282  
Old 23.11.2010, 21:47
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Oh, this sounds new to me. Maybe I'll read again about the initiative, but maybe you have a direct reference?
I would take the Volksinitiative first of all and the CH constitution and the Strafgesetzbuch second. In case of the Initiative, I refer to point 3, section a), which states that ....."rechtsgültig verurteilt worden ist" (got sentenced in accordance with the law). The CH constitution and the Straf-Gesetze (punishment laws) are quite clear about the principle that somebody who gets sentenced to a prison sentence AND expulsion from CH first has to serve the sentence





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15% of the business of UBS is a huge amount of money I believe. You seem to be pretty informed about this, I only have feelings, maybe you can share a document of some sort?
-
a document of some sort ? do you think they will release such documents to the public I got this information from retired UBS employees who no longer risk to run into problems when talking about such stuff. And YES, billions of CHF are involved, but in fact the share mentioned is far smaller in case of the Cantonal Banks which are very important in Switzerland, or the Migros Bank and the Coop Bank, even if both Coop Bank and Migros Bank since the latest banking crisis could welcome more US nationals than during decades before

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The rich foreigners (living in their home countries) with fat CH bank accounts are, in the best case, evading the taxes in their country. I call this stealing.
according to CH laws they are not guilty of stealing or fraud but only of MISdeclaring certain details. CH now is busily negotiating bilateral accords with important other countries and has already concluded such accords with the U.K. and Germany. These accords mean that a fixed percentage of the money deposited in CH banks by Brits and Germans, if exceeding a certain level, will be charged as "basis tax" and will be transferred to the UK and to Germany. Bundesrat Schneider-Ammann has already got into touch with the Italian leadership in regard to economic things but leaves THIS topic to the new Finance Minister, Mrs Widmer-Schlumpf (the only trouble is that the present Italian leadership has a short expiry-date and that Mrs Widmer-Schlumpf is expected to get "outvoted" late next year)
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  #283  
Old 27.11.2010, 11:29
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Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

SOURCE

Interesting article from a BBC point of view...

<snip>

Voters in Switzerland will go to the polls on Sunday to decide on a proposal to automatically deport foreigners who commit crimes.

Supporters of the proposal claim immigrants to Switzerland are disproportionately responsible for crime and should not be allowed to stay in the country.

The proposal is the initiative of the right-wing Swiss People's Party, the party which also masterminded last year's successful campaign to ban the building of minarets in Switzerland.
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  #284  
Old 27.11.2010, 11:34
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

Actually was having a conversation with a swiss about this a few days ago, she seemed to think it was only for crimes like robbery, murder, and rape? Am I wrong?

Surely not ANY crime will get you deported. Whats the point of living abroad if you can't commit any crime at all?
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  #285  
Old 27.11.2010, 11:36
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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Actually was having a conversation with a swiss about this a few days ago, she seemed to think it was only for crimes like robbery, murder, and rape? Am I wrong?

Surely not ANY crime will get you deported. Whats the point of living abroad if you can't commit any crime at all?
As per the article, serious crimes only ,as your friend states, and the evil benefit fraud...(Cuz that's worse than murder , right ?)
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  #286  
Old 27.11.2010, 12:02
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Both the initiative and counter-initiative have been explained a few pages back
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  #287  
Old 27.11.2010, 12:40
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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Actually was having a conversation with a swiss about this a few days ago, she seemed to think it was only for crimes like robbery, murder, and rape? Am I wrong?

Surely not ANY crime will get you deported. Whats the point of living abroad if you can't commit any crime at all?
A) The crimes which are to lead to deportation AFTER having served the sentence are
3.a
- intentional killing
- rape
- a heavy sexual assault ** (see below)
- robbery ** (see below)
- men trading / slavery ** (see below)
- drug crime
- burglary ** (see below)
3.b
- misuse of social services ** (see below)
point 6: whomever immigrates illegally commits a punishable
offence ** (see below)
points 4 and 8 :
the Federal legislative has 5 years to exactly define the
crimes mentioned under points 3.a and 3.b and 6 and to
adapt the Strafgesetzbuch (Punishments Law)
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  #288  
Old 27.11.2010, 14:30
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I think that it can be expected that the 2nd or 3rd generation at the latest will become CH citizens, IF they really regard CH as "home". If they do not, they simply ARE foreigners. Again, the constitutions and laws of the Confederation and the Cantons regard the length of stay of foreigners and whether they are 2nd or 3rd or 4th generation immigrants as completely irrelevant. Once again, this is the ruling legal principle here. And is more or less similar in most of Continental Europe (Napoleonic Law System.)

What you proclaim to be "good" and "reasonable" is neither but just the legal principles in most of the Commonwealth of Nations and in the USA. But is not regarded as either outside these "zones"
Wasn't Napoleon the leader of France? I thought that in France you could become a citizen if you were born there. According to Wikipedia, that's been changed so you acquire citizenship automatically only if one of your parents were born in France, but the path to citizenship in France for children born of foreign parents seems to be much easier than in Switzerland.

Children born of foreign parents in France can become French citizens if:

at birth, if stateless.
at age 18, if resident in France with at least 5 years' residence since age 11.
at age 16 upon request by the child and if resident in France.
at age 13 upon request by the child's parents and if resident in France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law

Is that the same case as this example that giff cited?

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In CH, I know a (rich) family: the man and the woman moved here in their pre-teens, they lived here all their lives and now have children, these kids are not Swiss. I find it pretty awkward.
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  #289  
Old 27.11.2010, 15:21
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Wasn't Napoleon the leader of France? I thought that in France you could become a citizen if you were born there. According to Wikipedia, that's been changed so you acquire citizenship automatically only if one of your parents were born in France, but the path to citizenship in France for children born of foreign parents seems to be much easier than in Switzerland.

Children born of foreign parents in France can become French citizens if:

at birth, if stateless.
at age 18, if resident in France with at least 5 years' residence since age 11.
at age 16 upon request by the child and if resident in France.
at age 13 upon request by the child's parents and if resident in France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law

Is that the same case as this example that giff cited?
Let's say it that way. The theory in France is far easier, but realities are not. Switzerland has four official language but NOT a state language. Switzerland is not defined by a common language as France is. And this means that in social life, the French expect any resident of their country to have a perfect command of French language. If you fail in this, you are, regardless of citizenship, regarded as a heavily inferior being While in Switzerland, if you have some mediocre command of the local language, you are acceptable for the bar-table, the Fussball-Club, the Kegelclub and the Jass-Runde.
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  #290  
Old 27.11.2010, 15:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Let's say it that way. The theory in France is far easier, but realities are not. Switzerland has four official language but NOT a state language. Switzerland is not defined by a common language as France is. And this means that in social life, the French expect any resident of their country to have a perfect command of French language. If you fail in this, you are, regardless of citizenship, regarded as a heavily inferior being While in Switzerland, if you have some mediocre command of the local language, you are acceptable for the bar-table, the Fussball-Club, the Kegelclub and the Jass-Runde.
& in Switzerland you are always accepted as a customer
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  #291  
Old 28.11.2010, 01:09
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Wasn't Napoleon the leader of France?
And now let's turn to "Napoleon". The one usually referred to when speaking about Napoleon is "Napoleon I" or by his original name "Napoleone Buonaparte" as he was born, like all Corsicans of his time, as a citizen of Genova, and only after France took over Corsica became a citizen of the Royaume Français. This is why his French was mediocre at best and always had a bad accent. The other one who later became "Napoleon III" grew up on the shores of the Bodensee in the Canton of Thurgau and beside the French citizenship also was a citizen of the Swiss Confederation. The only Swiss national who ever became an EMPEROR of a major country ! He in fact was reputed to be a major Charmeur, and the jokes about why many people in that particular region of Thurgau still have "Buenoparte" noses have been an evergreen for ages !
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  #292  
Old 28.11.2010, 09:59
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

It was Napolean Bonaparte who swept through Switzerland in 1798 and abolished the Old Swiss Confederation. Due to instability, he established the new Swiss Confederation through the Act of Mediation. It is from this that citizen referendums were instituted in Switzerland, as well as the Swiss Franc.
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  #293  
Old 28.11.2010, 12:26
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Geneva has refused both the initiative and the counter initiative!
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Old 28.11.2010, 12:52
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Unfortunately (or fortunately) citizen initiatives are counted by overall popular vote, not by canton.
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Old 28.11.2010, 13:23
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Unfortunately (or fortunately) citizen initiatives are counted by overall popular vote, not by canton.
I know that but I am just happy Geneva has refused both initiatives.We're used to the Swiss German votes over riding the Swiss Romande votes...
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Old 28.11.2010, 13:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

correct me if i'm wrong, but i think for this particular initiative the majority of both the cantons and the overall vote is needed.

canton glarus has voted yes btw, with 60 something percent
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Old 28.11.2010, 13:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

At 10,000 votes, 60% for initiative, and 40% against. I just hope the Gegenvorschlag comes through, and wins with the Stichfrage.
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  #298  
Old 28.11.2010, 13:35
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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At 10,000 votes, 60% for initiative, and 40% against. I just hope the Gegenvorschlag comes through, and wins with the Stichfrage.
i'm also listening to the radio...

do you think they could pass this "initiative" in any other country? Germany? England? The US?
I wonder.....


new zealand? australia? where would the australians send their criminals?!
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  #299  
Old 28.11.2010, 13:37
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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i'm also listening to the radio...

do you think they could pass this "initiative" in any other country? Germany? England? The US?
I wonder.....


new zealand? australia? where would the australians send their criminals?!
i'm quite sure that this kind of initiative would pass in many countries...unfortunately.
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Old 28.11.2010, 13:40
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I know that but I am just happy Geneva has refused both initiatives.We're used to the Swiss German votes over riding the Swiss Romande votes...
Where did you see the Geneva result?
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