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  #341  
Old 28.11.2010, 20:53
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It's restricted to foreigners because the people feel that "they let guest in" and they trash up the place. It's like letting someone live in your home and they "trash up the place" they would have to leave. Now if that person was (let's say for example) your 4year old child (not saying you have one) that trashed up the place, you would discipline him in some manner not kick him out. Swiss who commit the same crimes will be reprimanded. But they are Swiss so where are they going to send them?...Makes sense
the way i see it, if someone is legally here, pays taxes etc is not longer a guest. not sure if your analogy with guests trashing the place was meant to be a bit ironic but it is rather simplistic.
if someone commits a crime (swiss or non swiss) the discipline is whatever sentence is given after a trial. justice should be the same for everyone.
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  #342  
Old 28.11.2010, 20:57
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Somaruga explained it very clearly today: many parts of this initiative is legally so nebulous that they have a complex work to do in order to avoid to not only send criminal foreigners out of the country but also the consitution and the international agreements the poeple voted yes to.
In other words: the initiative was put to votation knowing that it it partially against the constitution and agreements voted by the people. Not exactly the most democratic way to go forward, dear SVP/UDC/PPS... (insert smiley of contempt)

The only difference with the present situation is that the expulsions will be automatical. No place for case to case any more. Once again, if one think that law is a PC-programme that kicks in without thinking, that means that one must go back to law-school. Yes, dear SVP/UDC/PPS, that applies to you too.

Not funny at all is the situation of people who will have to be sent to some foreign country by Swiss law but that are not allowed to enter those countries by local law. They can't stay, they can't go. Will they stay in your chalet, then, dear SVP/UDC/PPS members?

Even more interesting for people with a brain (don't even need a hart for that) is the contradiction seen from Brussel/Bruxelles. The same people who voted for Schengen vote now for a law in contradiction with it. Why would they continue to bother talking to Bern if there is no way to secure the respect of the signed agreements... If you want an initiative about Europe, just do so, dear SVP/UDC/PPS.

In short: the SVP/UDC/PPS made a initiative that nobody needed, as the criminals are already sent to their home contries, well aware of the fact that the whole thing was a way of crushing the bilateral agreements and to disrespect on purpose the signature of Switzerland of Schengen. They did not get their will at that time, so they sabotage it... that is exactly the psycho-social developpment stage of a 4 year old. Yes, dear SVP/UDC/PPS, I am talking about you.
Oh yes, yes, yes, beautifully scripted! I was happy with the alternative proposition, but this one allows the financial criminals to remain here. An own goal all round I think!
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  #343  
Old 28.11.2010, 20:57
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Right to change their minds? Where do you see that? Document, dear Prosperity, because frankly, if that was the case as upfront as you say, they is then no reason to sigh anything anymore then.

Changing your mind like a 4 year old at state level is called WILLKÜR in German, ARBITRAIRE in French. If you don't have a word for it in English, that is not a Swiss problem. Swiss constitution does not allow that. Respect Swiss constitution, please.
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  #344  
Old 28.11.2010, 20:59
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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In short: the SVP/UDC/PPS made a initiative that nobody needed, as the criminals are already sent to their home contries, well aware of the fact that the whole thing was a way of crushing the bilateral agreements and to disrespect on purpose the signature of Switzerland of Schengen. They did not get their will at that time, so they sabotage it... that is exactly the psycho-social developpment stage of a 4 year old. Yes, dear SVP/UDC/PPS, I am talking about you.

It needed to happen. There won't be problems with the bilateral agreements.

All parties admit it is not possible to implement 100% of the time. Cases will still need to be sentenced on a case by case basis. In cases where deportation could lead to torture or death, it will not be applied.

What is gone is a judge's prerogative not to deport. What brought this initiative to a vote was that judges often did not have the will or courage to deport foreigners. Judges now know the will of the people and have no more excuses, no matter which party the judge belongs to.
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  #345  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:02
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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the way i see it, if someone is legally here, pays taxes etc is not longer a guest. not sure if your analogy with guests trashing the place was meant to be a bit ironic but it is rather simplistic.
if someone commits a crime (swiss or non swiss) the discipline is whatever sentence is given after a trial. justice should be the same for everyone.
Legally being somewhere and being a citizen of a country is quite different. A person being somewhere legally or a citizen can't just "do what they want"...

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RIght to change their minds? Where do you see that? Document, dear, because frankly, if that was the case as upfront as you say, they is then no reason to sigh anything anymore then.

Changing your mind like a 4 year old at state level is called WILLKÜR in German, ARBITRAIRE in French. If you don't have a word for it in English, that is not a Swiss problem. Swiss constitution does not allow that. Respect Swiss constitution, please.
I am a Swiss Citizen. I am aware of the Swiss Constitution. Nothing is written in stone...every individual and country has a right to change their minds which also means the constitution. Actually USA needs to do some changes which some people in government are trying to initiate right at this moment. Times are changing, things are different, people are getting fed up of "being kind and being taken advantage of in their countries" More power to them...
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  #346  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:02
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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the way i see it, if someone is legally here, pays taxes etc is not longer a guest. not sure if your analogy with guests trashing the place was meant to be a bit ironic but it is rather simplistic.
if someone commits a crime (swiss or non swiss) the discipline is whatever sentence is given after a trial. justice should be the same for everyone.
Get it in your head grimson ,you can't deport a citizen.But it would be nice if we could deport em into deep space
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  #347  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:06
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Legally being somewhere and being a citizen of a country is quite different. A person being somewhere legally or a citizen can't just "do what they want"...
wow, thanks didn't know there was a difference...
and could you please point out (preferrably in bold font) where exactly in my post i said that people being legally here can "do what they want" ?
i said that the discipline for criminals is decided by a court. and that should be the same for everyone, regardless of nationality.
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  #348  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:06
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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All parties admit it is not possible to implement 100% of the time. Cases will still need to be sentenced on a case by case basis.
You just threw the SVP/UDC/PPS initiative in the bin. Because that was exactly what the initiative was to change.

As for Europe, please tell Brussel about your theories.

I've just spent the day following up the comments on Swiss romande, German Swiss and Radio Rumantscha - sorry if I am somehow impatient with you. My appologies.
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  #349  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:08
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Get it in your head grimson ,you can't deport a citizen.But it would be nice if we could deport em into deep space
it is crimson
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  #350  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:09
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I am a Swiss Citizen. I am aware of the Swiss Constitution. Nothing is written in stone
First, I don't care about your nationality, that does not say anything about your knowledge of the matter.
Secondly, a constitution IS written in stone between two revolutions.
Thirdly, I am now informing the Swiss authorities that you want to start a revolution against the consitution.

Good night, I've had enough of this.
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  #351  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:10
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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i said that the discipline for criminals is decided by a court. and that should be the same for everyone, regardless of nationality.
If I am not mistaken, the initiative when it becomes codified law, asks for automatic deportation of non-Swiss AFTER serving time here ( which is the same for Swiss and non-Swiss ). Time is determined by the Courts.
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  #352  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:11
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You just threw the SVP/UDC/PPS initiative in the bin. Because that was exactly what the initiative was to change.
Actually.... it was voted in. Again, the initiative was to compel judges to use the full extent of the law simply because they have repeatedly failed to do so in the past.



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As for Europe, please tell Brussel about your theories.
Brussels? Hahah... corrupt bunch of pushovers anyway.

Last edited by Phos; 28.11.2010 at 21:40.
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  #353  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:13
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If I am not mistaken, the initiative when it becomes codified law, asks for automatic deportation of non-Swiss AFTER serving time here ( which is the same for Swiss and non-Swiss ). Time is determined by the Courts.
yes, i am aware of that. and that should be enough. deportation after serving one's sentence is essentially a second sentence. which makes the whole punishment not the same for swiss and non swiss.
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  #354  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:15
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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wow, thanks didn't know there was a difference...
and could you please point out (preferrably in bold font) where exactly in my post i said that people being legally here can "do what they want" ?
i said that the discipline for criminals is decided by a court. and that should be the same for everyone, regardless of nationality.
The Swiss people were the court and they decided that "they have had enough of foreign criminials". Your post "implies" that foreigners should be allowed to commit any crime, do a little jail time, and be put back on the streets. I don't think you've heard about the "luxury of Swiss jails". Most criminals don't mind doing a little time there. If a person who lives in your home constantly steals from you, would you ask them to leave?
Actually this law is more than fair. The Swiss have tried the other way it didn't work, so they will do it this way.
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  #355  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You absolute right ,but explain to me the contribute the criminal making ?
What is a criminal for you? Someone who only lives from crime work? What about a respectable father who always worked hard and pay his taxes and have invest time in the community lose his mind and kill someone on impulsion?

So if the guy is a foreigner, they will send him back where he is from? What about his family?

Is this a criminal or someone who once commited a crime?
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  #356  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:18
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Again, the initiative was to compel judges to use the full extent of the law simply because they have repeatedly failed to do so.
Since when do the politicians dictate how the judges have to do their work? If you think so, your ideal country is France, or Russia, not Switzerland.

I stop here before I write something offensive (not to you especially dear Phos, it's a general statement to put myself to bed and leave you among yourselves)
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  #357  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:18
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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yes, i am aware of that. and that should be enough. deportation after serving one's sentence is essentially a second sentence. which makes the whole punishment not the same for swiss and non swiss.

The thing is, the right to stay in Switzerland can be stipulated by a condition that one does not commit a crime. A crime can strip one of that right to stay. Not much different from any other countries of the world.
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Old 28.11.2010, 21:19
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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yes, i am aware of that. and that should be enough. deportation after serving one's sentence is essentially a second sentence. which makes the whole punishment not the same for swiss and non swiss.
You're not "thinking", don't you understand? You can't deport a Swiss Citizen...Nor can any other country deport a citizen of their country. Your point has no merit...
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  #359  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:19
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The Swiss people were the court and they decided that "they have had enough of foreign criminials". Your post "implies" that foreigners should be allowed to commit any crime, do a little jail time, and be put back on the streets. I don't think you've heard about the "luxury of Swiss jails". Most criminals don't mind doing a little time there. If a person who lives in your home constantly steals from you, you would ask them to leave?
please, stop the simplistic analogies, i am not 10 years old.
swiss people are not the court, thankfully we have people who have studied to be judges.
how you found that my post implies that "foreigners should be allowed to commit any crime, do a little jail time, and be put back on the streets" is frankly beyond me. nobody (including swiss) should not do any crime and if they do so they should pay the price for it. which -for the third time- i believe should be the same for everyone.
as for the "luxury of swiss jails" allow me to know better if i have heard about it or not.
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  #360  
Old 28.11.2010, 21:19
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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yes, i am aware of that. and that should be enough. deportation after serving one's sentence is essentially a second sentence. which makes the whole punishment not the same for swiss and non swiss.
OK crimson
.You have a point ,lets Deport all the Swiss criminals to Greek
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