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  #21  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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So now we nearly know what is gonna happen to foreigner criminals with this initiative getting voted, just wondering on the contrary, what will be the punishment for UDC / SVP members showing this whole xenophobic attitude which on the international level and by international laws is considered one of the biggest crimes.
I honestly think the minaret posters were a LOT more offensive than this one.
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  #22  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:34
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

So what I don't get is that so many countries around the world kick somebody out of thier country if that person is not a citizen and commits a crime, often after having them spend their jail time in that country.

Why does it become an issue of race here in Europe and in Switzerland. This is a criminal vs. law abiding resident issue, right?

If somebody commits a crime and they are not a citizen and that crime is something that the citizens in general do not want to put up with, then why not send Joe, Geoff, John or Susan back to the country that they came from in the first place?
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  #23  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:37
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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So what I don't get is that so many countries around the world kick somebody out of thier country if that person is not a citizen and commits a crime, often after having them spend their jail time in that country.

Why does it become an issue of race here in Europe and in Switzerland. This is a criminal vs. law abiding resident issue, right?

If somebody commits a crime and they are not a citizen and that crime is something that the citizens in general do not want to put up with, then why not send Joe, Geoff, John or Susan back to the country that they came from in the first place?

It does happen here already. Lots of foreigners are deported every year. But many judges don't have the backbone to follow through, and the legal process is very long. This initiative is trying to enforce the laws which judges have been slow to implement.
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  #24  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:38
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I'll be voting yes. Quite frankly, if you're a guest here and you commit a serious crime, you shouldn't expect to be able to stay, and I apply that rule to myself (even though it doesn't apply in my case any more )
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  #25  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:39
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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So what I don't get is that so many countries around the world kick somebody out of thier country if that person is not a citizen and commits a crime, often after having them spend their jail time in that country.

Why does it become an issue of race here in Europe and in Switzerland. This is a criminal vs. law abiding resident issue, right?

If somebody commits a crime and they are not a citizen and that crime is something that the citizens in general do not want to put up with, then why not send Joe, Geoff, John or Susan back to the country that they came from in the first place?
Because
1. Effectively the Schengen zone is one country so it is not so simple to kick someone out of Switzerland & send them, for example, to Germany
2. Switzerland has signed various agreements about human rights which may be contravened.
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  #26  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:39
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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What do you think might be the consequences, should the expulsion initiative go through? It has been mentioned before that it could set the EU against CH and put in jeopardy all the 1999 reciprocal agreement. Do you believe this to be the case? What else might be at risk IYHO?
In my opinion this is far less important than the outcome of the `tax vote'. Nice comments below this article.
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  #27  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:40
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I honestly think the minaret posters were a LOT more offensive than this one.
Because you are not a Nationality that is stereotyped as rapists, child molester or similar... yes, the posters for the minaret ban were more clear and very offensive, but the new ones carry far more messages between the lines.

Reality is that the minaret ban was not about minarets - the people took it as a chance "to say something against Muslims". And this vote is not about criminals and will not make Switzerland more safe - it gives the people the chance "to say something against all those foreigners here".
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  #28  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:46
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Well, in my opinion there is a need for concern.

There is a general feeling against foreigners not only here but also in some other European countries. This vote may not doing anything legally but it keeps the momentum going. The posters and the vote keep the issue in the open. It fuels the fire. Of course there are swiss who are against but there are those who are losing jobs etc and need someone to blame even though Swiss are involved in some of the crimes. If the vote passes then it will definitely affect other countries as well.

Secondly there have been a number of newspaper reports about young people of Baltic origin racing in their cars in the streets causing accidents. there is an increase in theft, in our Horgen Thalwil area the plice report that there are 2 house thefts per night. There are many other reports in the newspapers that are fueling the fires.

Whether foreigners are to blame or not, it is the xenophobia that is on the rise that needs concern.

A thought just crossed my mind. If a group of "foreigners" got together and amassed information that the foreigners are not a threat but are actually contributing influence in places like Switzerland then... nah just wishful thinking.
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  #29  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:50
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Because you are not a Nationality that is stereotyped as rapists, child molester or similar... yes, the posters for the minaret ban were more clear and very offensive, but the new ones carry far more messages between the lines.

It's a ridiculous leap to say the posters are stereotyping whole nationalities. It's simply overplayed. These posters are quite ambiguous about the nationalities, enough so that it isn't even objectively provable. It wouldn't hold up in court. Whereas, the minaret one would hold up as an accusation of a group. If one is confident that one is neither a rapist, child molester or similar, then one does not have anything to worry about.
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  #30  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:52
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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young people of Baltic origin
you sure are well informed
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  #31  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:53
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It's a ridiculous leap to say the posters are stereotyping whole nationalities. It's simply overplayed. These posters are quite ambiguous about the nationalities, enough so that it isn't even objectively provable. It wouldn't hold up in court. Whereas, the minaret one would hold up as an accusation of a group. If one is confident that one is neither a rapist, child molester or similar, then one does not have anything to worry about.
absolutely right, only the guilty need to worry about this
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  #32  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:53
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Well, in my opinion there is a need for concern.

There is a general feeling against foreigners not only here but also in some other European countries. This vote may not doing anything legally but it keeps the momentum going. The posters and the vote keep the issue in the open. It fuels the fire. Of course there are swiss who are against but there are those who are losing jobs etc and need someone to blame even though Swiss are involved in some of the crimes. If the vote passes then it will definitely affect other countries as well.

I think you are right, that this is part of a trend. As for what can be done about it, this one is protected by the Swiss constitution under Freedom of speech. I suppose a citizen can start an initiative to ban racially offensive political poster and put that up for a vote. Until then....
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  #33  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It's a ridiculous leap to say the posters are stereotyping whole nationalities. It's simply overplayed. These posters are quite ambiguous about the nationalities, enough so that it isn't even objectively provable. It wouldn't hold up in court. Whereas, the minaret one would hold up as an accusation of a group. If one is confident that one is neither a rapist, child molester or similar, then one does not have anything to worry about.
No, it is not at all a ridiculuous leap - I explained it before in detail here and I recommend you to look at the article I linked: If even one of the typing monkeys at 20 minutes gets the messages of the posters it must be pretty obvious to any Swiss. The names of the criminals are not all ambiguous - it is more than clear who Ivan an Detlef are.

http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/sto...katen-31602943
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  #34  
Old 16.11.2010, 14:55
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

The poster is meaningless, no-one who had commited a serious crime such as child molestation would be granted Swiss nationality anyway. It sums up what I feel about the SVP; I do agree with SOME of their policies, but they do take the most controversial and lowest common denominator way of going about it.
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  #35  
Old 16.11.2010, 15:01
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No, it is not at all a ridiculuous leap - I explained it before in detail here and I recommend you to look at the article I linked: If even one of the typing monkeys at 20 minutes gets the messages of the posters it must be pretty obvious to any Swiss. The names of the criminals are not all ambiguous - it is more than clear who Ivan an Detlef are.

http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/sto...katen-31602943
if you know who Ivan and Detlef are then you should inform the police

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I explained it before
"Wie schon gesagt" - the most German of all German phrases.

Last edited by jrspet; 16.11.2010 at 15:03. Reason: Merging of successive posts
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  #36  
Old 16.11.2010, 15:07
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No, it is not at all a ridiculuous leap - I explained it before in detail here and I recommend you to look at the article I linked: If even one of the typing monkeys at 20 minutes gets the messages of the posters it must be pretty obvious to any Swiss. The names of the criminals are not all ambiguous - it is more than clear who Ivan an Detlef are.

http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/sto...katen-31602943

No doubt, they are criminal foreigner characters. Detlef, btw, is not likely to be balkan, rather from Germany. Still doesn't change the fact that it is about criminals, and non-criminals need not get excited over it.
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  #37  
Old 16.11.2010, 15:15
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Once again it is proven that converted people are more extreme than most of those born into something.

We got some born-again Swissies on this thread.
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  #38  
Old 16.11.2010, 15:16
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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you sure are well informed
I talk to Swiss who read the various papers who are making such comments. I am reporting to you what I have been told and what you do with it is up to you. It does not mean that I am agreeing with it.

So do not get caught up in the minor details such as who is the picture of. It what the poster does. How does it influence the people. It like asking what color the car is in a bad accident.

It is a momentum that needs concern.
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  #39  
Old 16.11.2010, 15:21
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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That's just as well. I don't think anyone is expectating 0 crime rate from this. But any less is better, as far as I'm concerned.
I think you miss the point - the criminals are only expelled after they commit these offences (not before) & after they are caught, tried & convicted.

So they are only off the streets afterwards - & what difference does it make to the crime rate whether they are off the streets due to being expelled or because they are in jail.
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  #40  
Old 16.11.2010, 15:21
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No doubt, they are criminal foreigner characters. Detlef, btw, is not likely to be balkan, rather from Germany. Still doesn't change the fact that it is about criminals, and non-criminals need not get excited over it.
It is not about the criminals. It is about foreigners. The SVP are picking subjects that will incite the population. If the momentum continues then the non criminal foreigners need to be concerned also.
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