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  #401  
Old 29.11.2010, 04:23
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I'd love to, but getting arrested participating in an illegal demo will probably get me kicked out of the country. Which is why my 5yr leaving plan just got cut to two.
No, it could NOT lead to you being kicked out, as participating in an illegal demonstration is NOT covered by the initiative
http://www.ausschaffungsinitiative.c...lksinitiative/
--- see points 3-a and 3-b

neither will it be under consideration according to points 4 and 8
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  #402  
Old 29.11.2010, 04:39
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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So, if they are so well educated, how did they get the country into such a pickle? Sometimes common sense is worth more than academic theories and a burning desire to play "Risk" for real....
sorry, but into "what such a pickle" did "they" ghet the country into ?
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  #403  
Old 29.11.2010, 04:41
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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so should the citizens be allowed to set any laws, even if they are against human rights?
just relax and stay on topic. Nothing was approved against human rights
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  #404  
Old 29.11.2010, 04:57
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I chose "suggest" on purpose, since I haven't taken the time to go and sift through that stuff. To be honest, I'm pi$$ed off enough at kids with Balkan accents picking pointless fights with me on the tram or guys from warmer climates aggressively chatting me up, sometimes even getting physical while doing so that I give the numbers the benefit of the doubt. Why should I go out of my way to find information that makes THEIR life better?
While I dislike those "Balkan accents" I never had pointless fights or any of them chatting me up but quite to the contrary always was and am accepted as intermediarly between them and natives . But what may making THEIR lifes better in reality will make the life of Switzerland better. Most of the people you mention are NOT criminals and have nothing to fear from the initiative.
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Old 29.11.2010, 05:11
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Actually.... it was voted in. Again, the initiative was to compel judges to use the full extent of the law simply because they have repeatedly failed to do so in the past.
No, the judges did NOT fail in the past. In reality they did NOT have the power to order the post-punishment deportation of the culprit. Quite in contrast to Italy where you got banned for three years even in case of a minor offence.

Last edited by Wollishofener; 29.11.2010 at 14:19.
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Old 29.11.2010, 05:14
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It's called Popular Sovereignty, and is documented here:

Swiss Federal Constitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Constitution

I highly recommend anyone living here to become familiar with this so you know which country you are living it.
Sure, just as stipulated in the French Revolution

le Souverain c'est le people
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  #407  
Old 29.11.2010, 08:09
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

SVP made it very convenient, they took ALL the "crimes" (regardless of level) and put them together and ALL the foreigners (even tourists)...voila one HELL of a trustworthy statestics!

The thing is, (million times explained), now it will get even easier to kick out foreigners which e.g. do "black labour"...because they couldn't get a job (due to foreigners are all criminals) - because they couldn't get a swiss passport (since they got a traffic violation or because they are 3rd generation born here but still don't automatically get a passport)...

So SVP had this agenda since long back, it's an evil scheme...
1. make it harder for foreigners to get a passport
2. make a lot of initiatives against foreigners so the swiss people can see what unreliable trash they are
3. get rid of them!

...what next...

1. higher taxes for foreigners (we already have this due to the Quellensteuer)
2. no freedom of speech (already restricted not by law though)
3. no freedom of religion (already restricted)
4. harder sentences for foreigners (already in place)
5. better circumstances for RICH foreigners (already in place, e.g. Roman Polanski the pedophile is well protected here in Switzerland)

...
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Old 29.11.2010, 08:16
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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My earlier comment was because you are putting us all in the same pot, just like this initiative is doing. And this initiative got through because of fear, fear of how the country is going, fear of being crowded out by people who are not like "us". Now some people are making an effort against this sort of BS and it's a lot harder to defend somebody else's interests against those who are defending their own. To be honest, if somebody then goes and says "you ALL fail", then my reaction is most likely to be "you know what? this isn't strictly speaking my problem, just an ideological discussion".
what I ment when I said "fail", is that nobody can make an effort to balance out SVP, if you look in media there are no counterpart, they have let out the beast...very dangerous...very dangerous indeed....
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  #409  
Old 29.11.2010, 08:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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SVP made it very convenient, they took ALL the "crimes" (regardless of level) and put them together and ALL the foreigners (even tourists)...voila one HELL of a trustworthy statestics!

The thing is, (million times explained), now it will get even easier to kick out foreigners which e.g. do "black labour"...because they couldn't get a job (due to foreigners are all criminals) - because they couldn't get a swiss passport (since they got a traffic violation or because they are 3rd generation born here but still don't automatically get a passport)...

So SVP had this agenda since long back, it's an evil scheme...
1. make it harder for foreigners to get a passport
2. make a lot of initiatives against foreigners so the swiss people can see what unreliable trash they are
3. get rid of them!

...what next...

1. higher taxes for foreigners (we already have this due to the Quellensteuer)
2. no freedom of speech (already restricted not by law though)
3. no freedom of religion (already restricted)
4. harder sentences for foreigners (already in place)
5. better circumstances for RICH foreigners (already in place, e.g. Roman Polanski the pedophile is well protected here in Switzerland)

...
Clearly you have read the text of the initiative. 100% of the post above if factually incorrect...
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  #410  
Old 29.11.2010, 09:29
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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just relax and stay on topic. Nothing was approved against human rights
Not being able to judicially appeal the deportation order is very much against human rights, and it is exactly what the SVP wanted.

Similar false arguments were used to make the minaret ban look palatable, when it clearly limits the freedom of religious expression.
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Old 29.11.2010, 09:36
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

this is the end of dating Swiss girls. One wrong kiss, she'll scream rape and you're out on your ass
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  #412  
Old 29.11.2010, 09:44
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Just found this thread...
This explains the busted windows at the ZKB on Limmatquai and the dozens of cops cars, screaming people and shots being fired last night near the Rathaus.
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  #413  
Old 29.11.2010, 10:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Not being able to judicially appeal the deportation order is very much against human rights, and it is exactly what the SVP wanted.

Similar false arguments were used to make the minaret ban look palatable, when it clearly limits the freedom of religious expression.
But Human Rights is a very wide field and not always a good thing.

In England, Learco Chindamo stabbed to death a teacher a number of years back. Nasty attack, front page news, he was a headmaster of a school, a model human, the guy who stabbed him was an absolute rotter.

After doing his time Chindamo was released, attempted to be deported to his home country, Italy, however he was allowed to stay in Britain after he successfully argued that to deport him would infringe his human rights.

Four months after release he has been arrested again for robbery.

The Widow, Mrs Lawrence, has tried to find out his address - just the region, not the address itself, so her kids are not living next to him, but she can't, because it invades his privacy. However her address is well known.

So who is losing their Human Rights in this example ?

Link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ut-to-dry.html

It's a bit aside I agree and in fact I disagree with this swiss "kick them out" thing pretty much fully, but I am very sceptical of Human Rights defences when they are just branded about with wild "but what about their human rights!!" style banners.
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Old 29.11.2010, 10:01
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

About the % of crime for foreigners vs swiss.

If someone swiss commit a crime, he has much more chance to get away with it than a foreigner. So I don't believe the stats when it says that 6 on 1000 swiss commited a crime, as I don't believe that 13 on 1000 foreigners did it too.

If you live in a small village where everybody knows your name since you are born, you have much more chance that people will not sell you to the authorities than if you are a new comer from the Balkan or Africa.

If a rape crime has be done by 2 men, one swiss, the other one foreigner, the chance of denonciation is bigger on the foreigner side.

Someone who is known by everybody for ever who rape a woman in the same village has much more chance to get away from it. It is statistically proved that those crime are in majority commited by people you know. Which makes it way much difficult for a woman to speak out loud.

But if it is made by Jo Blo coming from the Balkan, it is much easier to point him to the authorities.

my two cents.
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Old 29.11.2010, 10:02
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

It seems everyone sees what they want to see here, the point beyond all of this is what most of the people neglect, these SVP campaigns are credible one way or another in terms of laws (apart from it being targeted at a certain social class, race or religion), but what it really targets is charging the Swiss population against foreigners, they make foreigners, Muslims and anyone whom they will target in the future sound so evil and bad, this will create a great barrier between Swiss citizens and foreigners on the long run, we all know Switzerland is not the most easy social society and SVP is just making it worse.

As usual, politicians succeeded to manipulate the nation based on false facts for their own benefits.
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Old 29.11.2010, 10:05
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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this is the end of dating Swiss girls. One wrong kiss, she'll scream rape and you're out on your ass
Has there been any beginning ? Thought that dating swiss girls is science-fiction, like dating aliens.
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Old 29.11.2010, 10:12
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Sure, just as stipulated in the French Revolution

le Souverain c'est le people
There is a difference between Souverain as noun, and as adjective.

- noun (like in your quote): means the boss, the king, head of state
- whereas as adjective (in Phos' quote) it means: has the final decision and is independent (like the population in a vote).
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  #418  
Old 29.11.2010, 10:21
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Myabe I missed the post where this was explained but what are the crimes that are being punished by this measure then?
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  #419  
Old 29.11.2010, 10:26
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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But Human Rights is a very wide field and not always a good thing.

In England, Learco Chindamo stabbed to death a teacher a number of years back. Nasty attack, front page news, he was a headmaster of a school, a model human, the guy who stabbed him was an absolute rotter.

After doing his time Chindamo was released, attempted to be deported to his home country, Italy, however he was allowed to stay in Britain after he successfully argued that to deport him would infringe his human rights.

Four months after release he has been arrested again for robbery.

The Widow, Mrs Lawrence, has tried to find out his address - just the region, not the address itself, so her kids are not living next to him, but she can't, because it invades his privacy. However her address is well known.

So who is losing their Human Rights in this example ?

Link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ut-to-dry.html

It's a bit aside I agree and in fact I disagree with this swiss "kick them out" thing pretty much fully, but I am very sceptical of Human Rights defences when they are just branded about with wild "but what about their human rights!!" style banners.
The problem here is not that human rights are a bad thing, but the judiciary made a bad decision in letting Chindamo stay. So then the judges should be sanctioned, not the entire foreign population. There are enough anecdotes about judges and the police in Switzerland not applying the existing laws well enough, and the acceptance of this initiative is seen as a backlash to that. So then the question is, why should the entire foreign population lose a right when the judicial system is not doing its job well enough?
The SVP is glad to take advantage by supplying the wrong questions and bad answers.

Am not sure you understand what exactly is meant when it is stated that the initiative takes away human rights.
It is NOT a human right to not be deported from a country where one has committed a crime. And there is no such thing as a "Humans rights defence"
It IS a human right to be able TO BE ABLE TO APPEAL a punishment such as deportation.

So in your example no one is losing their human rights, since due legal process has been followed. It is bad for the affected family, but blanket deportations will hurt many more families. And I am not sure how Mrs Lawrence would feel better if some family loses their 17 year old to deportation for possessing a couple of joints.
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  #420  
Old 29.11.2010, 10:26
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If a rape crime has be done by 2 men, one swiss, the other one foreigner, the chance of denonciation is bigger on the foreigner side.

Someone who is known by everybody for ever who rape a woman in the same village has much more chance to get away from it. It is statistically proved that those crime are in majority commited by people you know. Which makes it way much difficult for a woman to speak out loud.


Any proof of this statement ...?
Perhaps the Swiss are more controlled when it crime. They are bought up in a society where this self control is a hugely positive factor.

This is not the case for some other countries
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