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  #421  
Old 29.11.2010, 09:34
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

The human rights issue isn't just to do with lack of appeal. It's to do with expelling those who have been born here and grown up here to a country they may never have visited and where they may not even speak the language. This has been recognised as a problem by the European Court of Human Rights.
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  #422  
Old 29.11.2010, 09:40
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Why should someone be allowed to argue based on human rights when they didn't respect the rights of someone else?
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  #423  
Old 29.11.2010, 09:44
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Because they still remain human beings, and if convicted, they do end up losing a lot of their rights, starting from freedom upto their right to life if deemed necessary. Until they are convicted they can argue all they like since there is that old fashioned idea of being presumed innocent.

The rights they lose should be proportionate, and that quantum of loss should be open to appeal, both tenets which this initiative violates.
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  #424  
Old 29.11.2010, 09:49
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It is NOT a human right to not be deported from a country where one has committed a crime. And there is no such thing as a "Humans rights defence"
It IS a human right to be able TO BE ABLE TO APPEAL a punishment such as deportation..
Why is it not a human right issue the first time but is for the appeal ? How about another appeal after that, or it is just the first one thats a human right ?

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So in your example no one is losing their human rights, since due legal process has been followed. It is bad for the affected family, but blanket deportations will hurt many more families. And I am not sure how Mrs Lawrence would feel better if some family loses their 17 year old to deportation for possessing a couple of joints.
Do you get deported for smoking two joints ? That is terrible if thats the case in the law - it literally will mean having a joint will get you kicked out.

It all shows rather well I think, that its not a simple issue and each case needs to be looked at individually, which is my point. People who have lived here but are not swiss passport holders for instance should never be kicked out as GG was pointing out.

In fact, really, I dont think anyone should be - I think the law is a mistake. But that doesnt change my view that the Human Rights law's are far to blanket across Europe.
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  #425  
Old 29.11.2010, 09:49
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Why should someone be allowed to argue based on human rights when they didn't respect the rights of someone else?
Because the punisher might want to distinguish himself from the perpetrator ? Guess why there were (lenghty and costly) trials in Nuremberg rather than a quick bullet to the back of the head ?
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  #426  
Old 29.11.2010, 10:23
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No, the judges did NOT fail in the past. In reality they did NOT have the power to order the post-punishment deporation of the culprit. Quite in contrast to Italy where you got banned for three years even in case of a minor offence.

Who was suppose to initiate deportations? The Gemeinde?

So this maybe like... public stoning.... the responsibility for deportation no longer rests on any particular individuals, rather shared by the whole country through this vote.

That is quite Swiss, no?
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  #427  
Old 29.11.2010, 10:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Because they still remain human beings, and if convicted, they do end up losing a lot of their rights, starting from freedom upto their right to life if deemed necessary.

So you are assuming that their countries of origin might execute them for crimes they commit in Switzerland? The sort of crime that merits such a punishment, even if it's in a crackpot dictatorship they're going back to, must be a rather severe crime. I don't think even Mugabe or Ghadaffi have ever executed anybody for smoking a joint, let alone in a foreign country.
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  #428  
Old 29.11.2010, 10:33
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Because the punisher might want to distinguish himself from the perpetrator ? Guess why there were (lenghty and costly) trials in Nuremberg rather than a quick bullet to the back of the head ?
Weren't they more about finding a justification for pardoning the guys who were still useful? Would the Apollo moon missions have taken off when they did if the people involved had been put to the firing squad without a trial back in 1945?
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  #429  
Old 29.11.2010, 10:39
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I haven't commented on this thread before and obviously I've not read the 22 pages (sorry for that!) but I always just somehow trusted that the Swiss would see through the SVP propaganda and vote against this.

And now I see that actually that's not the case. That people really are against foreigners here and they don't see that this is just the thin end of the wedge.

I actually feel very sad about it - I had faith in the Swiss people and they've not lived up to it. (I guess I thought the minaret thing was just an anomaly!)

As someone who really planned to be here for a long time, this is something that I am now going to seriously reconsider. Frankly I'm not sure I want to live here if these SVP guys are actually taken seriously by the Swiss people because that's not the way I want to live my life - being scared about what anti-foreign initiative they are going to come up with next.

Last edited by wattsli1; 29.11.2010 at 10:39. Reason: spelling (oh dear!)
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  #430  
Old 29.11.2010, 10:51
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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As someone who really planned to be here for a long time, this is something that I am now going to seriously reconsider. Frankly I'm not sure I want to live here if these SVP guys are actually taken seriously by the Swiss people because that's not the way I want to live my life - being scared about what anti-foreign initiative they are going to come up with next.
My understanding was actually that many foreigners were okay with the initiative because they are fed up with being tarnished with the same brush as criminals.

Having said that, this initiative has more to do with the SVP throwing their weight around than actually achieving anything meaningful. I think this has a lot to do with a protest vote out of dissatisafaction at the government, and the SVP playing its usual game of pretending to be the opposition while it is in fact part of that government.
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  #431  
Old 29.11.2010, 10:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I haven't commented on this thread before and obviously I've not read the 22 pages (sorry for that!) but I always just somehow trusted that the Swiss would see through the SVP propaganda and vote against this.

And now I see that actually that's not the case. That people really are against foreigners here and they don't see that this is just the thin end of the wedge.

I actually feel very sad about it - I had faith in the Swiss people and they've not lived up to it. (I guess I thought the minaret thing was just an anomaly!)

As someone who really planned to be here for a long time, this is something that I am now going to seriously reconsider. Frankly I'm not sure I want to live here if these SVP guys are actually taken seriously by the Swiss people because that's not the way I want to live my life - being scared about what anti-foreign initiative they are going to come up with next.
well, basel (and zürich city, bern city, and the romandie) voted against it. so please dont generalize from this (and the other minaret vote) to the whole population. despite the massive propaganda and misinformation by the svp, and the mistake of the counter initiative, still 47% voted against it. but i am massivly dissapointed and afraid of the upcoming initiatives from the svp. i hope they get their asses kicked somewhen soon.
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  #432  
Old 29.11.2010, 10:58
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Is this legislation really an different from what many countries currently employ, or plan to? The French expel 1500 members of an entire ethnic minority, are shouted at for a bit, then everyone forgets it. The majority of these people hadn't even commited any crimes.
What happens to foreign criminals in the US, Australia, UK etc etc? Let's face it, Swiss immigration policy is pretty liberal compared with many countries from where many EFers originate.
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  #433  
Old 29.11.2010, 11:07
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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As someone who really planned to be here for a long time, this is something that I am now going to seriously reconsider. Frankly I'm not sure I want to live here if these SVP guys are actually taken seriously by the Swiss people because that's not the way I want to live my life - being scared about what anti-foreign initiative they are going to come up with next.
Time to reconsider that citizenship application...

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well, basel (and zürich city, bern city, and the romandie) voted against it. so please dont generalize from this (and the other minaret vote) to the whole population.
Whatever. While you are right that one shouldn't generalise to individuals, the point is that the result now speaks for the nation. And until a new vote is cast, you can generalise about a country's attitudes based on this vote.

Whether Basel et al did or did not vote against it is now irrelevant, other than to claim some moral superiority.
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  #434  
Old 29.11.2010, 11:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Weren't they more about finding a justification for pardoning the guys who were still useful? Would the Apollo moon missions have taken off when they did if the people involved had been put to the firing squad without a trial back in 1945?
Wernher von Braun and his crew never stood for trial and thus never had to be acquitted or pardoned - the useful guys were shipped to the US (and some to Russia) long before any trial even started.
But we digress. My point was that some of the reasoning in this thread reminded me of certain principles for punishment I considered outdated in most western societies: An eye for an eye etc.
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  #435  
Old 29.11.2010, 11:20
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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...young people of Baltic origin...
Imported wives for hairy old Swiss males?

You mean Balkan I suspect, thus highlighting another stereotype...
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  #436  
Old 29.11.2010, 11:21
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

We will see more and more exception rules for foreigners. This is just the first step dealing with foreign criminals (from thief, traffic offender to murder). But it's now in the mind of the population that it's OK to have harsher rules for foreigners and tant pis for international agreements.
It's also again a very strong signal on how weak the other parties are...almost non existent in political landscape now.
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  #437  
Old 29.11.2010, 11:21
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Time to reconsider that citizenship application....
Possibly.... if you can't beat em join em?! I think it's more likely to just make us leave here.

I suppose the thing is just not knowing where these guys are going to stop. Deporting criminals is one thing (because I sincerely hope that neither I nor my family will ever be criminals!) but what IS next on their agenda?

Their policies go in a certain direction which is basically anti-foreigner (some -probably me too- would say "racist" given the black sheep poster.)

And no matter whether the people in this area voted against it, the majority overall still voted for it. It's somehow sanctioning that the SVP is right in it's Ivan the terrorist or whatever it was, poster. Sorry, rapist. Ivan the rapist. How many people really voted on the initiative itself and it's nitty gritty details - how many actually voted to kick all the black sheep and "Ivans" out of Switzerland altogether?
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  #438  
Old 29.11.2010, 11:23
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

But seriously, how will this law have any effect on your life?
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  #439  
Old 29.11.2010, 11:26
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Possibly.... if you can't beat em join em?! I think it's more likely to just make us leave here.

I suppose the thing is just not knowing where these guys are going to stop. Deporting criminals is one thing (because I sincerely hope that neither I nor my family will ever be criminals!) but what IS next on their agenda?

Their policies go in a certain direction which is basically anti-foreigner (some -probably me too- would say "racist" given the black sheep poster.)

And no matter whether the people in this area voted against it, the majority overall still voted for it. It's somehow sanctioning that the SVP is right in it's Ivan the terrorist or whatever it was, poster. Sorry, rapist. Ivan the rapist. How many people really voted on the initiative itself and it's nitty gritty details - how many actually voted to kick all the black sheep and "Ivans" out of Switzerland altogether?
The majority who voted for this initiative did out of fear of criminals and their despair about harbouring so many in our prisons.

Fact: Many of the expelled criminals find their way back to Switzerland.
IMHO: Most did not vote against foreigners in general.

If you are a law-abiding resident, this will have no effect on your life. Please do not paint all Swiss citizens as SVP followers. We aren't.
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  #440  
Old 29.11.2010, 11:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The majority who voted for this initiative did out of fear of criminals and their despair about harbouring so many in our prisons.

Fact: Many of the expelled criminals find their way back to Switzerland.
IMHO: Most did not vote against foreigners in general.

If you are a law-abiding resident, this will have no effect on your life. Please do not paint all Swiss citizens as SVP followers. We aren't.
And what about all the rich dictators, mafiosi and corrupted businessmen who live here with a lot of illegal money that they brought with them and have clever use of money laundry? Will they be kicked out of the country?
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