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  #461  
Old 29.11.2010, 11:58
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Right now, not much.

But as Mr V said in a post above yours, where is this road taking us?

I've lived here 11 years, all three children born here. We are having a house built.

What happens in 5+ years' time (when our children are fully integrated into the CH system) and there's a vote to stop foreigners owning property here?

What happens if they decide to cut the number of C-permits by 50%, and I'm the one who gets cut because (for example) I've lost my job and I'm on benefits and foreigners shouldn't get unemployment benefits?

This is not unthinkable in the current economic and social climate.

I've always maintained that the main reason for getting citizenship would be to make sure the Swiss can't kick me out of my home, and based on this vote, I will seriously reconsider getting citizenship. If I was living in a French part, I would probably already have applied (due to the language), but as my German is too bad, it'll take me a while longer...
That is in fact, exactly it - exactly the way I feel right now. It's not the vote or the law itself - it's more where is it going? Is my C permit safe? Is my house safe (we also own a house)? Will my children be treated like black sheep at school? What is their future like here?

I just have the opposite reaction I suppose - it makes me want to go home rather than become a Swiss citizen. I wouldn't want to stay where I feel that the government is against me - even if it is a lovely place to be (and I really do like Switzerland, and we are in fact very respectful of the Swiss culture and the Swiss way of doing things.)

I suppose I also imagine that one day if the SVP had their way you wouldn't be able to become a citizen anyway - so even if you did it now, they could probably find a way to take it away from you later on because your great grandma wasn't Swiss.
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  #462  
Old 29.11.2010, 11:58
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

What the SVP certainly liked was all the attention they got when they were announcing their initiative in 2007. So the whole party had their spot in the news secured. People want to see funny cuddly sheep, not boring old farts with fake smiles. Next election year 2011… How about a poster with a wolf in sheep clothing being kicked out for a vote on naturalisation on probation?


They have many new ideas. Not really new, but there you go...(in german)
Immigration laws have to be readjusted to better suit needs of the economy, asylum policy and naturalisation process have to be tightened… or maybe leave the Ausländerproblem (they surely do have some kind of problem there) for once in peace and just go for tightening criminal law. Whatever it will be, having enough campaign funds does not seem to be a question for this party.
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  #463  
Old 29.11.2010, 12:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Well, it shouldn't be and I find it shocking that you seem to think it's not a problem.
I do think it's a problem to drive drunk, several SVP politicians were caught drunk and driving. But a foreigner would face banishment (i.e changing all his life and a family) whereas the swiss may face to loose 3-6 months his driving licence. Is that a balanced punishment?
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  #464  
Old 29.11.2010, 12:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Please do not paint all Swiss citizens as SVP followers. We aren't.
No. Just 53% of you.
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Old 29.11.2010, 12:03
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No. Just 53% of you.
That's probably tongue-in-cheek GG , but it's also incorrect. You don't have to be an SVP-follower to agree with the initiative
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  #466  
Old 29.11.2010, 12:03
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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There is a path open to you for citizenship. You are welcome to it.
You are confusing integration with assimilation. Two very different concepts. And it is quite disrespectful to request assimilation or to imply that a foreigner, being fully integrated into the Swiss society, is unable to share Swiss values due to the color of the passport.
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  #467  
Old 29.11.2010, 12:04
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I was chatting with a Swiss colleague about this over lunch.

The referendum should probably be seen as part of a campaign leading towards the general election next year. If there are problems or delays with implementing the proposition, the SVP will be able to play on that . . . If there are problems with external organisations, e.g. the European Court, then that can be used in arguments about Swiss independence and the will of the people.
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Old 29.11.2010, 12:04
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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When 20% of the population accounts for 60% of crime, I think it is a problem. Here are the statistics prepared by the Federal Office for Statistics as background data for the initiative and counter-proposal:

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d.../05/01/02.html
I think you have misunderstood this report?

It actually says the 20% of the population who are here legally with Swiss Permits only account for 30% of the crime. The foreigners here without Swiss permits who are not counted in the 20% (because nobody knows how many) account for the other 30%.
Does raise the question about whether the Govt. would be better focussed on detecting & evicting the people who are here without permit; this would e more effective in reducing crime when people are evicted before commiting a crime instead of afterwards.
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  #469  
Old 29.11.2010, 12:05
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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That's probably tongue-in-cheek GG , but it's also incorrect. You don't have to be an SVP-follower to agree with the initiative
I agree you don't have to be a fully paid up member of the party.

But in some sense, if you're voting for an SVP initiative, you are following their lead.
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Old 29.11.2010, 12:08
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I do think it's a problem to drive drunk, several SVP politicians were caught drunk and driving. But a foreigner would face banishment (i.e changing all his life and a family) whereas the swiss may face to loose 3-6 months his driving licence. Is that a balanced punishment?
First of all, I think the punishments for drunk driving should be stricter and our jails should be less comfy. I mean, I don't get meat every day, why should they? Should a foreigner be sent home for the same crime as a Swiss, hmm, if they were made fully aware of the consequences of not sticking to this country's set of rules, then yes. You know the rules, you stick to them, simple. I'm sick and tired of the "well, everyone makes a mistake" attitude - it is completely up to you whether you choose to do right or wrong.
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  #471  
Old 29.11.2010, 12:08
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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What the SVP certainly liked was all the attention they got when they were announcing their initiative in 2007. So the whole party had their spot in the news secured. People want to see funny cuddly sheep, not boring old farts with fake smiles. Next election year 2011… How about a poster with a wolf in sheep clothing being kicked out for a vote on naturalisation on probation?


They have many new ideas. Not really new, but there you go...(in german)
Immigration laws have to be readjusted to better suit needs of the economy, asylum policy and naturalisation process have to be tightened… or maybe leave the Ausländerproblem (they surely do have some kind of problem there) for once in peace and just go for tightening criminal law. Whatever it will be, having enough campaign funds does not seem to be a question for this party.
More strict naturalization process, 5 years probation after naturalization, reintroduction of short prison sentences and the abolition of fines , what a custom made packages for foreigners.

These people are bloody sick, they are so paranoid about foreigners, if they don't want foreigners at all in CH, they should have the guts to just say it out loud instead of turning foreigners life into hell.

Basically the long term plan is to introduce a foreigners specific laws, and we have the choice to live with it or just leave, in addition to generating more hate between Swiss citizens and immigrants.......that's more like 1st class and 2nd class societies module.....welcome to 21st century new world order.

Addition: maybe they will get us chipped on entry (new permits) to be easily tracked within the country!!
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Old 29.11.2010, 12:10
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No. Just 53% of you.
47% of these 53% voted against it.

Last edited by jj muge; 29.11.2010 at 12:13. Reason: turnout...
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  #473  
Old 29.11.2010, 12:11
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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- don't think you are on safe side, like in France SVP may launch an initiative for those who got citizenship in the last 10years
Once the far right get some encouragement via the ballot box then who knows how far they will go?
Uusländers wearing compulsory yellow stars?

Marton
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  #474  
Old 29.11.2010, 12:15
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Once the far right get some encouragement via the ballot box then who knows how far they will go?
Uusländers wearing compulsory yellow stars?

Marton
Careful, you're straying close to Godwin's Law territory
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  #475  
Old 29.11.2010, 12:15
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Once the far right get some encouragement via the ballot box then who knows how far they will go?
Uusländers wearing compulsory yellow stars?

Marton
Godwin's law strikes again.
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  #476  
Old 29.11.2010, 12:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Most Swiss do not belong to a specific party. Sometimes they vote SP, sometimes CVP and sometimes SVP. It depends on the initiative and on how the consequences will affect them.

As history has proven, whenever a party becomes too strong, the pendulum will swing the other way. The Swiss don't want to be told by anyone (especially the SVP) on how they should think.

Many people who are not SVP followers voted for this initiative. It's a step towards keeping Switzerland safe and the quality of living high. Not more or less. The SVP struck a cord with this initiative. They probably will not with the next one.
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Last edited by olygirl; 29.11.2010 at 12:18. Reason: clarity
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  #477  
Old 29.11.2010, 12:18
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You are confusing integration with assimilation. Two very different concepts. And it is quite disrespectful to request assimilation or to imply that a foreigner, being fully integrated into the Swiss society, is unable to share Swiss values due to the color of the passport.
It's not a matter of the color of passport, rather about civic behavior. In the case of this initiative, it is about crime. If you are not committing any, it could only be for your benefit. Law and Order is a value that is prized here. I assume it is one of the things you appreciate about living here.


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I agree you don't have to be a fully paid up member of the party.

But in some sense, if you're voting for an SVP initiative, you are following their lead.
Unlike the politics of other countries, people in Switzerland have a tendency to vote their conscience rather than by party line. I know of one SVP supporter who voted against this initiative because she did not like the kind of society the initiative was proposing. Voting for an initiative has little to do with party affiliation. People vote on initiatives based on the merits of it.
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Old 29.11.2010, 12:24
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Unlike the politics of other countries, people in Switzerland have a tendency to vote their conscience rather than by party line. I know of one SVP supporter who voted against this initiative because she did not like the kind of society the initiative was proposing. Voting for an initiative has little to do with party affiliation. People vote on initiatives based on the merits of it.
I'm not really making a point about voting along the lines of party affiliation.

I'm indicating that votes in favour of the proposition benefit the SVP.
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Old 29.11.2010, 12:27
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Godwin's law strikes again.
Did not stop this thread though?
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Old 29.11.2010, 12:33
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Nazis! SVP! Daily Mail! Tea Party! Fascist state! Mussolini! Stalin! Black sheep! Minarets! End of the world!

Oops. I think I just spilt my tea.
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