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  #481  
Old 29.11.2010, 13:43
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Nazis! SVP! Daily Mail! Tea Party! Fascist state! Mussolini! Stalin! Black sheep! Minarets! End of the world!
.. and that's just your 1st graders .
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  #482  
Old 29.11.2010, 13:58
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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reintroduction of short prison sentences and the abolition of fines , what a custom made packages for foreigners.

Not wanting to defend the SVP here, but these ideas are not directed specifically towards foreigners.

In general, I am glad that I live in the city of Bern where 70% of the people said no to the initiative.


Will have to think about the rest.
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  #483  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:02
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Most Swiss do not belong to a specific party. Sometimes they vote SP, sometimes CVP and sometimes SVP. It depends on the initiative and on how the consequences will affect them.

As history has proven, whenever a party becomes too strong, the pendulum will swing the other way. The Swiss don't want to be told by anyone (especially the SVP) on how they should think.

Many people who are not SVP followers voted for this initiative. It's a step towards keeping Switzerland safe and the quality of living high. Not more or less. The SVP struck a cord with this initiative. They probably will not with the next one.
I think you've just shot yourself in the foot. You say that you (the Swiss) are not all SVP voters, but then in the next breath say that you don't like being told what to do.

So by saying that not all Swiss are SVP followers, are you in fact suggesting that this anti-foreign sentiment is simply a natural "state of being" in the majority of the Swiss?

I think I find that even more worrying...

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Nazis! SVP! Daily Mail! Tea Party! Fascist state! Mussolini! Stalin! Black sheep! Minarets! End of the world!

Oops. I think I just spilt my tea.
Is that the latest documentary you've been watching on TV?
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  #484  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:06
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I think you've just shot yourself in the foot. You say that you (the Swiss) are not all SVP voters, but then in the next breath say that you don't like being told what to do.

So by saying that not all Swiss are SVP followers, are you in fact suggesting that this anti-foreign sentiment is simply a natural "state of being" in the majority of the Swiss?

I think I find that even more worrying...
Now could you restate your logic in simple English? Your explanation lost me.
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  #485  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:11
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Now could you restate your logic in simple English? Your explanation lost me.
If everyone is SVP, that's one thing - i.e. if you have a bunch of right wingers, you know what you are dealing with, so you can counter that thinking/party.

If however, everyone isn't SVP, but rather are naturally anti-foreign, whilst being liberal or central (in their politics) in all other aspects, that, to me, is more worrying. My reasoning is that you are dealing with a political ideology that is harder to counter (no clear target), as it is a systemic feeling rather than one allied to any political allegiance.

HTH
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  #486  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:15
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If everyone is SVP, that's one thing - i.e. if you have a bunch of right wingers, you know what you are dealing with, so you can counter that thinking/party.

If however, everyone isn't SVP, but rather are naturally anti-foreign, whilst being liberal or central (in their politics) in all other aspects, that, to me, is more worrying. My reasoning is that you are dealing with a political ideology that is harder to counter (no clear target), as it is a systemic feeling rather than one allied to any political allegiance.

HTH

By the way, do you understand what the SVP ideology is? Since you refer to it as an ideology, would you mind explaning what you think it is?
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  #487  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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By the way, do you understand what the SVP ideology is? Since you refer to it as an ideology, would you mind explaning what you think it is?


Remind me what the topic of this thread is?
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  #488  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If everyone is SVP, that's one thing - i.e. if you have a bunch of right wingers, you know what you are dealing with, so you can counter that thinking/party.

If however, everyone isn't SVP, but rather are naturally anti-foreign, whilst being liberal or central (in their politics) in all other aspects, that, to me, is more worrying. My reasoning is that you are dealing with a political ideology that is harder to counter (no clear target), as it is a systemic feeling rather than one allied to any political allegiance.

HTH
You are assuming people are anti-foreign. The majority are not. They are anti-criminal. My question to you: why are you taking this so personally?
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  #489  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:19
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Should a foreigner be sent home for the same crime as a Swiss, hmm, if they were made fully aware of the consequences of not sticking to this country's set of rules, then yes. You know the rules, you stick to them, simple.
I'm really surprised by this sentiment. I thought most people would support equality under the law and that no group should be privileged or disadvantaged in law whether they are politicians, foreigners or racial minority. The proposal reminded me of the forced removals under apartheid.

Even if the laws were extended to cover the Swiss so as to make the law apply equally, I wonder whether it could still be considered proportionate punishment in all cases.
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  #490  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:22
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Like this one, Lady Justice is often wearing a blindfold. In switzerland, justice needs to check and asks " Swiss or foreigner?"
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  #491  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:25
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You are assuming people are anti-foreign. The majority are not. They are anti-criminal. My question to you: why are you taking this so personally?
I think most of us appreciate a sense of justice and equal treatment. Even if I am not concerned as criminal, i feel that this series of initiatives from SVP targets foreigners. The mentality is "we should keep foreigners under control through harsh and discriminating laws". Today it's the criminals...tomorrow it could be any foreigner. The trend is a bad sign as the swiss population lost any complex towards voting discriminating laws.
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  #492  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You are assuming people are anti-foreign. The majority are not. They are anti-criminal.
I must admit I haven't been following the proposed vote, but understand that the expulsion is to apply only to foreigners. I don't think there would be such an issue if the law applied equally to swiss so that they are also expelled. As such, the measure is anti-foreigner.
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  #493  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Just out of interest, can anyone hazard a guess as to who said this:

"There's no convincing case for putting anything higher on the priority list in terms of deportation than persons who've committed crimes,'' ?
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  #494  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:29
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I would love to see a week where every foreigner in this country stay at home. A whole week, no foreigners at all at work...

How messy the country would look like....
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Old 29.11.2010, 14:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Today it's the criminals...tomorrow it could be any foreigner. The trend is a bad sign as the swiss population lost any complex towards voting discriminating laws.
An interesting point. I don't know enough about Switzerland, but wondered whether the proposal breaches some constitutional law? Or is it perfectly fine for the Swiss to vote in a law that says, for example: "All black people are subject to tax at double the normal rates"?
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  #496  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Just out of interest, can anyone hazard a guess as to who said this:

"There's no convincing case for putting anything higher on the priority list in terms of deportation than persons who've committed crimes,'' ?
Mother Teresa?
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  #497  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You are assuming people are anti-foreign. The majority are not. They are anti-criminal. My question to you: why are you taking this so personally?
Why? See posts below (all from this thread).

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We will see more and more exception rules for foreigners. This is just the first step dealing with foreign criminals (from thief, traffic offender to murder). But it's now in the mind of the population that it's OK to have harsher rules for foreigners and tant pis for international agreements.
It's also again a very strong signal on how weak the other parties are...almost non existent in political landscape now.
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I take it you haven't read about the SVP's next agenda items, which are already being taken from their drawers: Migration under the scope of the bilateral EU-Swiss treaties has to be reduced, since such migration - according to the SVP - is the key factor in many problems Swiss society has to deal with these days, including unemployment, lack of affordable housing, destroying the beautiful Swiss countryside ("Zersiedelung").
Note that the SVP is talking about working, law-abiding, tax-paying people here - not criminals.
As for me (also from this thread):

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Right now, not much.

But as Mr V said in a post above yours, where is this road taking us?

I've lived here 11 years, all three children born here. We are having a house built.

What happens in 5+ years' time (when our children are fully integrated into the CH system) and there's a vote to stop foreigners owning property here?

What happens if they decide to cut the number of C-permits by 50%, and I'm the one who gets cut because (for example) I've lost my job and I'm on benefits and foreigners shouldn't get unemployment benefits?

This is not unthinkable in the current economic and social climate.

I've always maintained that the main reason for getting citizenship would be to make sure the Swiss can't kick me out of my home, and based on this vote, I will seriously reconsider getting citizenship. If I was living in a French part, I would probably already have applied (due to the language), but as my German is too bad, it'll take me a while longer...
Phos mentioned that the road to citizenship is open to me. Not really. I'm about to move Kanton, so my clock gets re-set and my German is piss-poor - perfectly fine for everyday use and small talk, but not for an application. Ironically, I speak French fluently, to the extent that had I lived in a French Canton, I'd probably already have that little red book. Even more ironically, it's also probably one of the main reasons that my German isn't good enough either.

Added to which, I feel that applying for citizenship, just to keep a house, is simply wrong from a moral point of view. Being a citizen of a particular country should be something that you want for its own sake, beyond doing so for any financial gain - put bluntly it cheapens its value.
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  #498  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:32
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

Taken from swiss info:

The initiative aims at the automatic deportation of foreigners convicted of serious crimes such as murder, rape, other serious sexual offences, violence such as armed robbery, drug trafficking, human trafficking, and breaking and entering. Welfare fraud is also included.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials...l?cid=28899524


Just so that we all know what we are talking about.

The article goes on to say that each case will be judged INDIVIDUALLY.
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Old 29.11.2010, 14:33
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I would love to see a week where every foreigner in this country stay at home. A whole week, no foreigners at all at work...

How messy the country would look like....
I know what's gonna happen in this case, SVP will come up on all media saying "You see, we told you, foreigners are evil and lazy, they want to destroy the economy of our country"
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Old 29.11.2010, 14:33
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I would love to see a week where every foreigner in this country stay at home. A whole week, no foreigners at all at work...

How messy the country would look like....

Precisely, which is why think the SVP know it is not in their or the country's best interests to go the whole hog on "foreigners out". I would hazard a guess that most SVP politicians who are businessmen rely on foreign workers. I know Blocher's firm has something like 22% foreign staff. They might be misguided sometimes, but they're not stupid.
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