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  #521  
Old 29.11.2010, 13:50
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Just out of interest, if the same question came up in your country of origin and you had the opportunity to vote on it, which way would you vote?
Judicial review. (The counter proposal.)
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  #522  
Old 29.11.2010, 13:52
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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Against criminals....a huge YES, i will feel much more safer and confident it's all for the Swiss citizens and my own (as a foreigner) benefits and security, but now i feel Swiss citizens are feeling safer (with more hate against foreigners deep inside), while me (being on the same class as the acclaimed bad guys) feeling unsecured and much offended.

Hope this explains it all and no hard feelings.
What criminal offense did you committed ?
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  #523  
Old 29.11.2010, 13:52
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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And if you start telling the Swiss Joe Bloggs that he should not have the right to vote a certain way or that the EU will come down on us like a tonne of bricks, it will only push him further into the SVP corner, because all of these votes against foreign things are going in the same direction of reacting against what is perceived as being negatively influenced by outward influences.
Spot on, so the case is not criminals or not, it's all about being negatively influenced by outward influences and that is the exact problem, the Swiss Joe have the impression that we as foreigners are negative and bad influence on the Swiss society, no matter what we do to integrate and SVP is exactly playing on this point, turning their impressions to deep fear and hate.
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  #524  
Old 29.11.2010, 13:52
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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Sorry, my friend. I see the glass half full and you see the glass half empty. I understand how foreigners can see this as a jab against them but, if this initiative were carried out only against criminals, wouldn't it make everyone's life that much more safe?
It's a very silly argument to try and make a exclusion between being anti-criminal and discrimination towards foreigners.

Imagine you had a system which allowed penalties of four years in jail for natives, but eight years for visitors. Arguably that's simply an anti-crime measure . . . it's obviously discriminatory though.

In a more realistic example, imagine young two secondi go out and burgle somewhere one night. Both of them were born here and grew up here. Only one of them recently applied for citizenship though. Of course they're both criminals and no one is saying they shouldn't be punished. But why should one get a short jail sentence whereas the other gets expelled from the country?
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  #525  
Old 29.11.2010, 13:53
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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Did you spot the word"bestimmte" befor????
and...? what's the point. There is an initial list of offenses proposed by the initiants that will be completed (i.e extended) once the law goes through parliament. Again it's not about defending a foreign murder or rapist, but why make it AUTOMATIC.
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  #526  
Old 29.11.2010, 13:55
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Just out of interest, if the same question came up in your country of origin and you had the opportunity to vote on it, which way would you vote?
Ah, my country of origin has made it very difficult to enter as a foreigner and become employed. They have built high fences along the southern borders to keep the neighbouring nation from entering illegally. There are heated subjects about allowing a mosque to be built near ground zero. For a tourist to enter, one must have a biometric passport or a visa.

I'd say they are doing their very best to keep all foreigners out. The prisons are not overfilled with foreigners but of their own citizens.

I don't think this initiative would help the situation at all in my land of origin.
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  #527  
Old 29.11.2010, 13:56
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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Sorry, my friend. I see the glass half full and you see the glass half empty. I understand how foreigners can see this as a jab against them but, if this initiative were carried out only against criminals, wouldn't it make everyone's life that much more safe?

About "wouldn't it make everyone's life that much more safe" - how exactly?

Foreigners will only be deported after they commit a crime, not before. So from the Bundesamt für Statistik figures.
Half the foreigners who commit crimes have no Swiss permits so would probably be have been deported under the existing laws.
So for the other half with Swiss permits some would also have been deported under the existing laws; say half?
This leaves one quarter deported under the new laws who would not have been deported under the existing laws.
According to the same Bundesamt für Statistik figures only a quarter of of criminals repeat their crimes so the improvement in safety is potentially a quarter of a quarter = a sixteenth.
Big deal, I feel really safe knowing this measure will potentially reduce such crimes by one sixteenth.
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  #528  
Old 29.11.2010, 13:58
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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As pointed out, people against these initiative are not pro-criminal, I guess most of us foreigners dislike criminals. The issue is the trend...

Honestly I don't feel very welcome here anymore

maybe Swiss misplaced hospitality with hostility...?
I'm terribly sorry to hear that. But you are also allowed to leave voluntarily.
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  #529  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:02
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Ah, my country of origin has made it very difficult to enter as a foreigner and become employed. They have built high fences along the southern borders to keep the neighbouring nation from entering illegally. There are heated subjects about allowing a mosque to be built near ground zero. For a tourist to enter, one must have a biometric passport or a visa.

I'd say they are doing their very best to keep all foreigners out. The prisons are not overfilled with foreigners but of their own citizens.

I don't think this initiative would help the situation at all in my land of origin.
And an important fact . A Neutralized US Citizen can be striped of his aqiuert citizenship and deported
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  #530  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:03
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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what I ment when I said "fail", is that nobody can make an effort to balance out SVP, if you look in media there are no counterpart, they have let out the beast...very dangerous...very dangerous indeed....

The SVP in the past 20 years has LOST most of the public votings they launched. Some successes they of course have had, but in reality, the Social Democrats with public votings were clearly more successful. Just to give one example, Micheline Calmy-Rey and her party succeeded on one single day to get Switzerland into Schengen and Dublin agreements. If you look to the media, the Tages Anzeiger group and the Basler Zeitung and Le Temps are from centrist to left-of-centre, and the NZZ group is FDP (Freisinnige/Liberals). The state radio (dominant in CH) is centrist, state TV (dominant in CH) is left-of-centre. The SVP only has the Weltwoche in their hands. Which means that most of the media IS "counterpart" and supported the Gegenvorschlag. Had the Social-Democrats abstained from their Double-No decision, the Initiative would NOT have been approved.

In both the Federal and the Cantonal parliaments, the SVP has between 20 and 30% of the seats, in the Federal government they now only have one but will have two again at the end of 2011. In many city-governments like the one of Zurich, they are not present at all.

Look into the Zurich media (TA + NZZ) today and you can see that 3 projects which were opposed by at least sections of the SVP got approved, which are
- a new law about parking spaces and bicycle parkings
- the covering of the highway near the Katzensee
- the expansion of the Bahnhof Oerlikon

You may say that the Deportation Initiative is more important but then you are simply wrong. The Bahnhof Oerlikon is used daily by 110'000 persons. And so is relevant for thousands, while the Deportation matter, even if you take ALL rapists and ALL burglars and all Killers and all the victims together, in reality only really affects a very small number of people.

And just for the records, the City of Zürich rejected the deportation initiative quite massively by 64,5%, the YES of the canton was with 50,8% rather narrow.
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  #531  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:03
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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What criminal offense did you committed ?
Again it's not about crime, let me get this simple:
  1. Swiss Citizen X (who believed and voted for SVP all the way): Foreigners take our jobs, damage our salary scale, make lots of Swiss unemployed, force their own culture,.....etc (Just a thought)
  2. SVP: We ban minarates, we deport foreigner criminals,....etc (Supported by false facts of course)
  3. Adding 1+2= Average Swiss Citizen X hates foreigners because of previous fears, bad press / media and SVP intense campaigns
  4. Foreigners Vs Swiss Citizen X = Big wall of hate and unease.
  5. Result: Swiss Citizen X feel unsafe around foreigners, and foreigners feel unwelcome around Swiss Citizen X

Hope this explains more my point
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  #532  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:04
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If the laws were not clear and we were talking about things that you do not know unless you grew up here, then I would feel it was wrong. But we are talking about laws that you can choose not to break, you enter this country knowing that those are the rules.

Again, all this is not your problem if you are a law-abiding citizen.
You're missing the point. Let me give you 2 other potential laws which can be made clear so you can choose not to break:

1. Law which requires the automatic deportation if you break the speed limit.

2. Law which requires the automatic deporation if you break the law and are a woman.

Now both of these laws are clear and you can choose not to break. So do you have no problem with these? Hopefully not.

The first law highlights the lack of proportionality and discretion.

The second highlights the discrimination at a particular group. If you imagine such a law in place and how you feel as a woman with such a law, then you can perhaps imagine what the proposal is like for foreigners.
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  #533  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:10
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Except that not everyone entered the country, but were born here.

So why don't these people apply for Swiss citizenship. Is it becase of the compulsory army duty?
No Hash, don't be so realistic
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  #534  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Not being able to judicially appeal the deportation order is very much against human rights, and it is exactly what the SVP wanted.
.
Neither can a foreigner appeal a deportation order issued in Germany on the basis of article 47 section 1 , neither can a foreigner appeal against a deportation order issued by the British judiciary based on the immigration law Part 13, article 363 . And the Gypsies who recently got deported from France on the basis of a presidential decree apparently had no right of appeal. None of these things apparently were/are regarded as being against human rights by people in charge.
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  #535  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:22
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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About the % of crime for foreigners vs swiss.

If someone swiss commit a crime, he has much more chance to get away with it than a foreigner. So I don't believe the stats when it says that 6 on 1000 swiss commited a crime, as I don't believe that 13 on 1000 foreigners did it too.

If you live in a small village where everybody knows your name since you are born, you have much more chance that people will not sell you to the authorities than if you are a new comer from the Balkan or Africa.

If a rape crime has be done by 2 men, one swiss, the other one foreigner, the chance of denonciation is bigger on the foreigner side.

Someone who is known by everybody for ever who rape a woman in the same village has much more chance to get away from it. It is statistically proved that those crime are in majority commited by people you know. Which makes it way much difficult for a woman to speak out loud.

But if it is made by Jo Blo coming from the Balkan, it is much easier to point him to the authorities.

my two cents.

The real lie in reality is that "foreigners in prison" in many statistics includes non-resident "tourists". You also can have it the other way round, which means that if you delete all people above 70 as seldom active in crime, the figures look a bit different.
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  #536  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:24
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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An interesting point. I don't know enough about Switzerland, but wondered whether the proposal breaches some constitutional law? Or is it perfectly fine for the Swiss to vote in a law that says, for example: "All black people are subject to tax at double the normal rates"?
Err.... a citizen initiative is a modification of the constitution.




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The article goes on to quote the Federal Migration Commission to claim that each case will have to be judged individually. That may be wishful thinking on their part - and I am not aware of this Commissioon having any decision-making authority.
The key part seems to be this statement

The purpose of the initiative was to make it clear what the will of the citizens are. It does bypass the judiciary, which is partly the intention. The implementation is to be done by the government.

Before they can deport anyone, they would have to figure out where to deport them to. In some cases, they won't be able to. Even the SVP has acknowledges this.




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Honestly I don't feel very welcome here anymore

maybe Swiss misplaced hospitality with hostility...?

You are reacting to the political propaganda of one particular party, the SVP. It is true that the propaganda is anti-foreigner and xenophobic. This type of propaganda is called Ueberfremdung. I understand why this would cause foreigners to be fearful. But remember that the SVP is not Switzerland.
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  #537  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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...But remember that the SVP is not Switzerland.
That's my point though. This "fear of foreigners" seems to be spreading beyond traditional SVP voters and entering mainstream more and more - that in itself is the most worrying part for me.
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  #538  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Neither can a foreigner appeal a deportation order issued in Germany on the basis of article 47 section 1 , .... And the Gypsies who recently got deported from France on the basis of a presidential decree apparently had no right of appeal. None of these things apparently were/are regarded as being against human rights by people in charge.
Would you mind being a tad bit more specific re the German law you quoted ? Unfortunately Germany has an abundance of laws which makes it somewhat challenging to search your reference....
Re the case of the gypsies in France I doubt strongly that Sarko's advisors were ignorant of the legal issues resulting from their deportation order. However, I believe that the European Union was rather straightforward in their position in telling France that automatic deportation is violating the individuals' basic rights.
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  #539  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Who was suppose to initiate deportations? The Gemeinde?

So this maybe like... public stoning.... the responsibility for deportation no longer rests on any particular individuals, rather shared by the whole country through this vote.

That is quite Swiss, no?
The responsibility is with the judges. They have to decide if the crime in question falls under the definition of the law. The exact definitions (point 8 of the Initiative) have now to be worked out by the federal parliament within 5 years.
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  #540  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:29
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Re the case of the gypsies in France I doubt strongly that Sarko's advisors were ignorant of the legal issues resulting from their deportation order. However, I believe that the European Union was rather straightforward in their position in telling France that automatic deportation is violating the individuals' basic rights.
And the consequences of the EU's wagging finger were what, exactly?
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