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  #541  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:30
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The responsibility is with the judges. They have to decide if the crime in question falls under the definition of the law. The exact definitions (point 8 of the Initiative) have now to be worked out by the federal parliament within 5 years.
Who decides if the new law meets the requirements of the referendum proposal? Is this just down to a vote in parliament or is there an oversight committee of some kind?
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  #542  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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And the consequences of the EU's wagging finger were what, exactly?
Oh, there were lost of feel-good consequences I'm sure.
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  #543  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:34
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The human rights issue isn't just to do with lack of appeal. It's to do with expelling those who have been born here and grown up here to a country they may never have visited and where they may not even speak the language. This has been recognised as a problem by the European Court of Human Rights.
THIS indeed is what is extreme about this initiative. But a lame declaration of accepting this aspect as "a problem" will not help. It should be clearly defined that if a foreigner has lived in a country SINCE birth, a deportation should not be legal. You however have to realize that many countries in Europe have such laws already in force, and this means that exactly those countries will not be interested in any decisions which might force them to cancel parts of their own legislation.

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  #544  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:35
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I do think it's a problem to drive drunk, several SVP politicians were caught drunk and driving. But a foreigner would face banishment (i.e changing all his life and a family) whereas the swiss may face to loose 3-6 months his driving licence. Is that a balanced punishment?
No, driving drunk is NOT part of the initiative and so being caught drunk and driving will NOT lead to deportation.
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  #545  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:38
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No, driving drunk is NOT part of the initiative and so being caught drunk and driving will NOT lead to deportation.
the list of offenses in the initiative is a first list...it's going to be extended during the set-up of law in parliament.
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  #546  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:41
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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And the consequences of the EU's wagging finger were what, exactly?
It forced France to withdraw the initial presidential decree and replace it with a new decree which is in line with the EU standards. See here: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...nce=IP/10/1207
If you read between the lines of the usual diplomatic gibberish this is the equivalent of France rolling over on this topic. Sarko?s media advisors may have painted another picture in the French media.
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  #547  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:45
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It forced France to withdraw the initial presidential decree and replace it with a new decree which is in line with the EU standards. See here: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...nce=IP/10/1207
If you read between the lines of the usual diplomatic gibberish this is the equivalent of France rolling over on this topic. Sarko?s media advisors may have painted another picture in the French media.
And how many of the expelled Roma have been allowed to return since?
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  #548  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:46
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No. Just 53% of you.
No, it is between 20 and 30 % . When the Social Democrats win public votings it does not mean that more than 50% had temporarily become Social Democrats.
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  #549  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:46
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If it's any help, the average English mother-tongue foreigner offers no threat to the Swiss.
<off-stage>Slap</off-stage>

The sound of a back-handed compliment
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  #550  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:51
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Once the far right get some encouragement via the ballot box then who knows how far they will go?
Uusländers wearing compulsory yellow stars?
Marton
You see, here you have the difference between a parliamentary and a direct democracy. If somebody manages to get a majority in parliament of a particular law, the law becomes valid. Here they would have to launch another initiative which they would lose. They won this time, but how their YES vote dropped within a few weeks from 65% to just 53% must be a warning for them.
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  #551  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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And how many of the expelled Roma have been allowed to return since?
Allowed? Romania joins Schengen on March 27th 2011 & then the expelled Roma can move back within the Schengen Zone.
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  #552  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I agree you don't have to be a fully paid up member of the party.

But in some sense, if you're voting for an SVP initiative, you are following their lead.

The same percentage of people in the past have voted sometimes for an SVP initiative, more times in fact for an SP initiative and sometimes for an FDP initiative. It has not much to do with "following their lead".
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  #553  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Neither can a foreigner appeal a deportation order issued in Germany on the basis of article 47 section 1
I assume that you are referring to Para.47 sec.1 of the German law on Foreigners. A few comments:
1. Every foreigner affected by such a deportation order can appeal against it.
2. Para 47 establishes a requirement for a minimum jail sentence of three years (2yrs for specific felonies) as a prerequisite for a deportation order
3. Para 48 list quite a few scenarios, which require the authorities to
look at the individual case: Owner of the equivalent to a C-permit, having been born in Germany, being married to a German etc.
4. The entire German law on Foreigners does not apply to EU citizens who benefit from the EU freedom of movement.

Having said that I agree that such a balanced approach is way too complicated for an initiative.
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  #554  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:57
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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About "wouldn't it make everyone's life that much more safe" - how exactly?

Foreigners will only be deported after they commit a crime, not before. So from the Bundesamt für Statistik figures.
Half the foreigners who commit crimes have no Swiss permits so would probably be have been deported under the existing laws.
So for the other half with Swiss permits some would also have been deported under the existing laws; say half?
This leaves one quarter deported under the new laws who would not have been deported under the existing laws.
According to the same Bundesamt für Statistik figures only a quarter of of criminals repeat their crimes so the improvement in safety is potentially a quarter of a quarter = a sixteenth.
Big deal, I feel really safe knowing this measure will potentially reduce such crimes by one sixteenth.
Forgot to write; since the deportation takes place only after the prison sentence is served & also after the 5 years defined to implement the initiative - it will be around 10 years before you can start to feel safer versus the current situation.
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  #555  
Old 29.11.2010, 14:59
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You see, here you have the difference between a parliamentary and a direct democracy. If somebody manages to get a majority in parliament of a particular law, the law becomes valid. Here they would have to launch another initiative which they would lose. They won this time, but how their YES vote dropped within a few weeks from 65% to just 53% must be a warning for them.
I think both voting of Nov.2009 and Nov.2010 show the limits of direct democracy. Very emotional topics if wrapped with enough disinformation can lead to a form of anti-democratic state.
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  #556  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I think you've just shot yourself in the foot. You say that you (the Swiss) are not all SVP voters, but then in the next breath say that you don't like being told what to do.

So by saying that not all Swiss are SVP followers, are you in fact suggesting that this anti-foreign sentiment is simply a natural "state of being" in the majority of the Swiss?

I think I find that even more worrying...



Is that the latest documentary you've been watching on TV?
By most YES voters it only was an anti-foreign-criminals sentiment and NOT an anti-foreign sentiment.
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  #557  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:04
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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sorry, but into "what such a pickle" did "they" ghet the country into ?
Actually that comment was related to a side-skirmish and referred to politicians in the UK....sorry for the confusion and the background noise...
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  #558  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:05
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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By most YES voters it only was an anti-foreign-criminals sentiment and NOT an anti-foreign sentiment.
My comment is taken out of context. Technically you are correct. But it is the "spirit" of the vote that worries me rather than the "letter", so to speak.

For context, click here.
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Old 29.11.2010, 15:09
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I think both voting of Nov.2009 and Nov.2010 show the limits of direct democracy. Very emotional topics if wrapped with enough disinformation can lead to a form of anti-democratic state.
I'm not sure what you mean by an anti-democratic state, short of an initiative preventing citizens from launching initiatives in the future.
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  #560  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:11
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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From the initiative text (in german): " Die Volksinitiative will Ausländerinnen und Ausländern automatisch das Aufenthaltsrecht entziehen, wenn sie bestimmte Straftaten begangen oder missbräuchlich Sozialleistungen bezogen haben"

Did you spot the word "automatic" before you voted YES?
I voted NO in spite of having found out that FIRST a court sentence for a crime has to be issued and that "automatic" will be the consequence of crimes still to be exactly defined (in the framework given by the initiative). If you think police can arrest a criminal and then upon the order of a police officer deport an accused foreign criminal you got it wrong.
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