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  #561  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:11
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I'm not sure what you mean by an anti-democratic state, short of an initiative preventing citizens from launching initiatives in the future.
Any situation in which the majority don't vote the way I want is anti-democratic by definition.
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  #562  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:12
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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Again it's not about crime, let me get this simple:
  1. Swiss Citizen X (who believed and voted for SVP all the way): Foreigners take our jobs, damage our salary scale, make lots of Swiss unemployed, force their own culture,.....etc (Just a thought)
  2. SVP: We ban minarates, we deport foreigner criminals,....etc (Supported by false facts of course)
  3. Adding 1+2= Average Swiss Citizen X hates foreigners because of previous fears, bad press / media and SVP intense campaigns
  4. Foreigners Vs Swiss Citizen X = Big wall of hate and unease.
  5. Result: Swiss Citizen X feel unsafe around foreigners, and foreigners feel unwelcome around Swiss Citizen X
Hope this explains more my point
Ahhh $hit and I thought this thread was about deporting foreigner criminals
And about your point ,show me a country where does symptoms don`t exist
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  #563  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:20
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Based on what many people are writing here, you'd be led to believe that a referendum tomorrow on the expulsion of all foreigners would get a massive yes vote.
Hardly.
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  #564  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:26
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Personally I voted no.
(Also personally I'm 100% sure that the counter proposal would have passed instead would it not have contained the integration article...)

But please see this initiative as what it is: A clear signal that Swiss people don't want people to come here and commit crimes. Simple as that.

No need to feel unwelcome if you're not a criminal or planning to become one.

Also deporting the black sheep foreigners should also be in the interest of the white sheep immigrants, shouldn't it?
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  #565  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:26
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Would you mind being a tad bit more specific re the German law you quoted ? Unfortunately Germany has an abundance of laws which makes it somewhat challenging to search your reference....
Re the case of the gypsies in France I doubt strongly that Sarko's advisors were ignorant of the legal issues resulting from their deportation order. However, I believe that the European Union was rather straightforward in their position in telling France that automatic deportation is violating the individuals' basic rights.
The German article 47 section 1 in the Foreigners Law says :

Reasons which make a deportation a definite final result are :
- a legal sentence due to one or more crimes to a definite prison-term of more than three years
- a legal sentence due to offences against drug laws or burglary to a definite prison term of more than two years
- various crimes as above, done within five years which resulted in a combined length of definite prison terms of more than three years

The British article 363 under Part 13 of the immigration law says

The circumstances in which a person is liable to deportation include :
(i) where the Secretary of State deems the person's deportation to be conductive to the public good
(ii) where the poerson is the spouse of civil partner or child under 18 of a person ordered to be deported
(iii) where a court recommends deportation in the case of a person over the age of 17 who has been convicted of an offence punishable with imprisonment

****************************

It is quite obvious that the German law in question of course is far harsher than the British one. In Switzerland, Germany and the U.K., the accused CAN appeal against the sentence for the crime he/she is accused of ! as the deportation in all three countries comes at the end of a court verdict
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Old 29.11.2010, 15:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Based on what many people are writing here, you'd be led to believe that a referendum tomorrow on the expulsion of all foreigners would get a massive yes vote.
Hardly.
Yeah, there is certainly a lot of unfounded fear and paranoia being aired.

Don't worry, if the SVP comes after any of you, give me a ring and I'll let you stay in my attic. I may have some crawl space between the walls. And on the next opportunity I get, I will certainly look for an opportunity to vote against the SVP.

There is not a lot to worry about people Relax, enjoy a nice safe walk in Switzerland without the worry of being mugged.
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  #567  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:35
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Who decides if the new law meets the requirements of the referendum proposal? Is this just down to a vote in parliament or is there an oversight committee of some kind?
A) First, within 5 years, the two houses of parliament will have to, as specified in the initiative under points 4 and 8, define exactly what crimes exactly will be under the new law. The new law ( 121, sections 3 to 6) is to have the wordings of the initiative .
B) The judges will still come to the verdict and will have to say whether the crime in question falls under 121 / 3-6 . A defence lawyer cannot appeal against the deportation verdict, but of course against the verdict about the crime.
C) No, there is no oversight committee. Unless the two houses of the Congress decide to establish such an organisation
B) It will be the judges who decide about wheter
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  #568  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:37
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It is quite obvious that the German law in question of course is far harsher than the British one. In Switzerland, Germany and the U.K., the accused CAN appeal against the sentence for the crime he/she is accused of ! as the deportation in all three countries comes at the end of a court verdict
Not sure I follow you on your first statement. How is the requirement for a prison sentence of at least 2 yrs in the individual case harsher than the requirement for being sentenced for a crime which is punishable by a prison sentence (=even if the actual sentence was a fine only) ?
Furthermore, I don't agree with your description of the judicial process leading to deportation in Germany: There is a criminal proceeding, against which you can appeal if sentenced. Once that has resulted in your jail term being confirmed there is a second (administrative) process by the respective authority which results in a deportation order, against which you can initiate court proceedings separately.
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  #569  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:48
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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That's my point though. This "fear of foreigners" seems to be spreading beyond traditional SVP voters and entering mainstream more and more - that in itself is the most worrying part for me.
Quite to the contrary, there in the Switzerland of the 1950ies and 60ies was a far far heavier anti-foreigners sentiment than now. Xenophobia in reality has come down quite heavily. In the 1960ies a Mr Schwarzenbach even did an initiative which demanded that all foreigners having been around for less than 10 years were to be expelled. This was then most clearly rejected. And Mr Schwarzenbach faded away into history.

You should not jump to conclusions on the basis of one of two votes. If you further on realize that only 55% of the voters participated than you can restart your calculator
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  #570  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:51
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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the list of offenses in the initiative is a first list...it's going to be extended during the set-up of law in parliament.
No, the list will NOT be extended, but will become more precise. You see, in both chambers are majorities of those parties who made the Gegenvorschlag, and they will not agree to extensions ! And no extension is mentioned in the Initiative
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  #571  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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. If you further on realize that only 55% of the voters participated than you can restart your calculator
why the apathy?
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  #572  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Wollishofener, you've done an excellent job of presenting facts. My hat's off to you.

Last edited by olygirl; 29.11.2010 at 15:57. Reason: spelling
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  #573  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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My comment is taken out of context. Technically you are correct. But it is the "spirit" of the vote that worries me rather than the "letter", so to speak.

For context, click here.
Now we come closer to the point. What was horrible about the initiative were
- the spirit of the initiative
- the propaganda methods used
- the twisted arguments used
- the faked statistics used
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  #574  
Old 29.11.2010, 15:58
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If you further on realize that only 55% of the voters participated than you can restart your calculator
Not really. The vote now stands, irrespective of the turnout and apathy of the voters (which in itself if suggestive of passive acceptance of the motion*), and will remain until such time as a new vote is taken on the subject. Care to make a bet about when that might be?

*Based on the observation that when the right really does push the wrong buttons, people get up in arms about it.
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  #575  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You should not jump to conclusions on the basis of one of two votes. If you further on realize that only 55% of the voters participated than you can restart your calculator
Ok, let me give it a try:

>50% of 55%: one quarter of the population votes for a law that is xenophobic to say the least and very likely breaks international law in several aspects - from Schengen to basic human rights.
>50% of 55%: about another quarter was against it. Unfortunately we do not know how many of those voted for the equally wrong "Gegenvorschlag", probably most of them.

45% could not give a weather or not some idiots are screwing up their countries reputation. Again.

The reality will be - again - that the new law will have very little effect. How many minarets have been prevented by now? Not many.

How many foreigners will be easily kicke out? The legal framework will require a case-by-case system rather than anything "automatic" - this will bring huge administrative costs and a low number of criminals that will really be expelled. Weather or not EU foreigners can be expelled at all is open.

This is just another little step stone, but as it happens every year: Does anybody know what the next year will bring? What is the next SVP initiative? I guess they must be starting soon, don't they?
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  #576  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:01
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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why the apathy?
No apathy really. 55% is fairly high by CH standards. As a CH-voter, you within a year usually take part in upto 15 votes (various levels) and in upto 10 elections. And again, you overestimate the importance of that initiative to people in general. Unfortunately this often means that 30% of the electorate form a deciding majority. So, very important is to what extent one or the other side can mobilize the voters.
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Old 29.11.2010, 16:06
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No apathy really. 55% is fairly high by CH standards. As a CH-voter, you within a year usually take part in upto 15 votes (various levels) and in upto 10 elections. And again, you overestimate the importance of that initiative to people in general. Unfortunately this often means that 30% of the electorate form a deciding majority. So, very important is to what extent one or the other side can mobilize the voters.
No shit Sherlock. Did you only just work that out?

Well obviously it doesn't affect the majority of Swiss people. It affects the foreigners. Again, it comes back to the point that the "spirit" of this whole motion is rotten, and put forward by a party that likes to bash foreigners.

As Trev said, a(nother) stepping stone.
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  #578  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:11
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No shit Sherlock. Did you only just work that out?

Well obviously it doesn't affect the majority of Swiss people. It affects the foreigners. Again, it comes back to the point that the "spirit" of this whole motion is rotten, and put forward by a party that likes to bash foreigners.

As Trev said, a(nother) stepping stone.
Please give an example of how it will affect you.
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  #579  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:12
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Not really. The vote now stands, irrespective of the turnout and apathy of the voters (which in itself if suggestive of passive acceptance of the motion*), and will remain until such time as a new vote is taken on the subject. Care to make a bet about when that might be?

*Based on the observation that when the right really does push the wrong buttons, people get up in arms about it.

A) the vote now stands, BUT the law not yet. And in the details of the law, which means in the exact definition of the crimes in question, it will NOT be the SVP but the Federal Congress which will determine the final details. And in fact the result will not be so different from the Gegenvorschlag after all.

B) The Gegenvorschlag lost out for many reasons, including
-1) it was too similar to the initiative, just as "Bouillon mit/ohne Ei"
-2) a new vote about the subject is possible, but the SVP will be
very careful not to launch something they were to lose
-2b) A year ago, SVPlers spoke about an initiative to prohibit the
veils, but at least for the time being have backed down from the idea

C) No, being bored about the choice between two similar proposals does not mean acceptance of either. And the No-No vote in effect robbed the Gegenvorschlag of any chance
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Old 29.11.2010, 16:24
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The first law highlights the lack of proportionality and discretion.

The second highlights the discrimination at a particular group. If you imagine such a law in place and how you feel as a woman with such a law, then you can perhaps imagine what the proposal is like for foreigners.
Again, you shouldn't be speeding, simple.

As to the discrimination aspects - the numbers suggest there is a problem with a certain group of individuals, that's why it passed. I don't have anything against "foreigners", to the Swiss I am a foreigner too, I just don't like people from abroad walking all over the laws of this state and then costing a lot of money because of it.
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