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  #581  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:27
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Ok, let me give it a try:

>50% of 55%: one quarter of the population votes for a law that is xenophobic to say the least and very likely breaks international law in several aspects - from Schengen to basic human rights.
>50% of 55%: about another quarter was against it. Unfortunately we do not know how many of those voted for the equally wrong "Gegenvorschlag", probably most of them.

45% could not give a weather or not some idiots are screwing up their countries reputation. Again.

The reality will be - again - that the new law will have very little effect. How many minarets have been prevented by now? Not many.

How many foreigners will be easily kicke out? The legal framework will require a case-by-case system rather than anything "automatic" - this will bring huge administrative costs and a low number of criminals that will really be expelled. Weather or not EU foreigners can be expelled at all is open.

This is just another little step stone, but as it happens every year: Does anybody know what the next year will bring? What is the next SVP initiative? I guess they must be starting soon, don't they?
At the time of the Minaret Initiative there was only one project for a Minaret, which at the time already was approved, in Langenthal, and there is now a legal struggle between one side insisting that the project as approved BEFORE that vote and those who say that the beginning of the construction is the point.

The number of foreign criminals to be "kicked out" will be rather limited even if it is difficult to guess about the real number.
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  #582  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I just don't like people from abroad walking all over the laws of this state and then costing a lot of money because of it.
Like people who were born here and grew up here?
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  #583  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:30
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Please give an example of how it will affect you.
I've already answered that question. Go back and check. Thank you.
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  #584  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Like people who were born here and grew up here?
Congratulations, you have started the nit-picking. Like I said, I voted Gegenvorschlag, which had the Integration thing in it.
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  #585  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:36
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Now we come closer to the point. What was horrible about the initiative were
- the spirit of the initiative
- the propaganda methods used
- the twisted arguments used
- the faked statistics used
Great post Mr. Wollishofener, now we're heading the same direction, so if these are the facts about the whole initiative (which is true) and 55% of the voters supported it, then they are definitely responsible for their own votes and wanted to prove an opinion.

This whole initiative was disgrace, humiliating and disgusting by all means from start to end, it classifies the society into categories and it pushes on more boundaries and hatred between society members citizens and residents, supporting it means voters agreed on every single step of the whole campaign from the press, media, advertising and results, they knew very well it is not appropriate to present it this way, they knew it would leave many foreigners feeling not welcome, they knew it's discriminative, yet chose to vote yes, to accept such methods from their own political party, this means no respect whatsoever to foreigners.

I am not talking only politics here, but on the human level too.
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  #586  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:36
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No, the list will NOT be extended, but will become more precise. You see, in both chambers are majorities of those parties who made the Gegenvorschlag, and they will not agree to extensions ! And no extension is mentioned in the Initiative
Actually yes they can:

Der Gesetzgeber umschreibt die Tatbestände nach Absatz 3 näher. Er kann sie um weitere Tatbestände ergänzen

But it shows the strength of the initiative that no one has an idea how the law will look like. By the sounds of it will familiar to the counter initiative anyway. The SVP has promised the justice minister that misdemeanors won't be punished with expulsion so it looks like there will need to be a minimum sentence. The parlament can add plus any criminals who are sentenced to two years prision and there you go that's basically the counter initiative

Edit. Just wanted to add that the SVP seem to have found their success formula. Once they went against all foreigners they always lost so they're now going against the 'bad' foreigners like those evil muslims who keep their wifes locked up at home 'minarett initiative' and now against criminal foreigners. I'm expecting similar votes in the future. They're thinking about a law that requires all foreigners to sign a contract that they'll accept Swiss laws and traditions. I won't be surprised if a new initiative wants to stop any ex-cons moving here as well. (not that I would agree with it)
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  #587  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:41
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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...supporting it means voters agreed on every single step of the whole campaign from the press, media, advertising and results...
Not entirely true, actually.
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  #588  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:43
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Not entirely true, actually.
The fact that is visible to everyone is the results, unless there's solid verified facts that the same people who voted yes were actually against the campaign itself, i will stand my ground on this opinion.
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  #589  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:46
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The fact that is visible to everyone is the results, unless there's solid verified facts that the same people who voted yes were actually against the campaign itself, i will stand my ground on this opinion.
Just because you might agree with something in principle, doesn't mean to say you necessarily have to approve of the way in which it was presented.
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  #590  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:46
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Not sure I follow you on your first statement. How is the requirement for a prison sentence of at least 2 yrs in the individual case harsher than the requirement for being sentenced for a crime which is punishable by a prison sentence (=even if the actual sentence was a fine only) ?
Furthermore, I don't agree with your description of the judicial process leading to deportation in Germany: There is a criminal proceeding, against which you can appeal if sentenced. Once that has resulted in your jail term being confirmed there is a second (administrative) process by the respective authority which results in a deportation order, against which you can initiate court proceedings separately.
The difference between Germany and Switzerland mainly is that an appeal can be made separately against the deportation-order, while the lawyer for the defence in Switzerland will have to put all his efforts into the appeal against the general court verdict. Back to Germany, I much doubt that a separate appeal against the deportation order has a good chance as the text looks very clear.
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  #591  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:48
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Like people who were born here and grew up here?

Well, it for sure is a tragedy that Switzerland failed to conquer parts of Siberia or Guyane or St. Helena or New South Wales
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  #592  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:53
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Just because you might agree with something in principle, doesn't mean to say you necessarily have to approve of the way in which it was presented.
So it's the same concept as we agree and enjoy a better economy but we don't approve it's because of dirty money in our banks........that's so much grey area for me
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  #593  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:57
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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By the way, do you understand what the SVP ideology is?
This is where I can help. Language teacher here:
There are neither ideas nor logic, so why would there be any ideology?

My inner self tells me SVP/UDC/PPS is just doing the preparation work for the next elections. They don't care that much about foreigners, they just want to get the controle of the federa council by being strong enough in parliament to get three seats one day, Widmer-Schlumpf being ejected by then. They go for power as such, not for anything in particular within politics. They lounge initiatives without knowing exactly what they actually contain. The yesterday one is a crown example of it.
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  #594  
Old 29.11.2010, 16:57
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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So it's the same concept as we agree and enjoy a better economy but we don't approve it's because of dirty money in our banks........that's so much grey area for me
What are you talking about?
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  #595  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:03
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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This is where I can help. Language teacher here:
There are neither ideas nor logic, so why would there be any ideology?

My inner self tells me SVP/UDC/PPS is just doing the preparation work for the next elections. They don't care that much about foreigners, they just want to get the controle of the federa council by being strong enough in parliament to get three seats one day, Widmer-Schlumpf being ejected by then. They go for power as such, not for anything in particular within politics. They lounge initiatives without knowing exactly what they actually contain. The yesterday one is a crown example of it.
I fear that some of the SVP members (Schlür) who finance the hate campaigns do have really a nasty policy plan in their heads.
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  #596  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:10
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I fear that some of the SVP members (Schlür) who finance the hate campaigns do have really a nasty policy plan in their heads.
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In September 2007, Schlüer figured in an interview in The Independent, in which he commented on UN special rapporteur on racism Doudou Diène, who had expressed concern over the "racist and xenophobic dynamic" in the campaign pursued by Schlüer's party that
"He's from Senegal where they have a lot of problems of their own which need to be solved. I don't know why he comes here instead of getting on with that.
Is he for real?
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  #597  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:12
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Except that not everyone entered the country, but were born here.

So why don't these people apply for Swiss citizenship. Is it becase of the compulsory army duty?
Why should "army duty" stop anyone from becoming Swiss if they feel they are Swiss?
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  #598  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:14
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If it's any help, the average English mother-tongue foreigner offers no threat to the Swiss.
Wow!

I am not sure how to call this statement...

Eh! Why should I care about the Minaret initiative? I am not muslim! Eh! Why should I care about women violence? I am not a woman. Why should I care about Haiti, I am not black, nor from the country.

Why should I care about the expulsion of criminal foreigners (even the one born here) I am not a criminal and I am not one of those foreigners that the swiss are threaten by...

If tomorrow you are dying on the sidewalk, why should I help you? I don't know you, I am busy and it won't change anything in my life that your alive or dead....

Good way of thinking isn't it? Don't care about anything that doesn't touch you directly. Mind your own business and F**k off the rest of the population because it doesn't concern me anyway!

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Old 29.11.2010, 17:18
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Wow!

I am not sure how to call this statement...

Eh! Why should I care about the Minaret initiative? I am not muslim! Eh! Why should I care about women violence? I am not a woman. Why should I care about Haiti, I am not black, nor from the country.

Why should I care about the expulsion of criminal foreigners (even the one born here) I am not a criminal and I am not one of those foreigners that the swiss are threaten by...

If tomorrow you are dying on the sidewalk, why should I help you? I don't know you, I am busy and it won't change anything in my life that your alive or dead....

Good way of thinking isn't it? Don't care about anything that doesn't touch you directly. Mind your own business and off the rest of the population because it doesn't concern me anyway!

No, of course it isn't a good way of thinking. But neither is hysteria, paranoia or ignoring what was really voted on: criminal foreigners and not foreigners in general.

It was a pathetic attempt to relieve the fear expressed on this board. Obviously it failed. I will ask for it to be deleted since it can easily be taken out of context.
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Old 29.11.2010, 17:19
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Wow!

I am not sure how to call this statement...

Eh! Why should I care about the Minaret initiative? I am not muslim! Eh! Why should I care about women violence? I am not a woman. Why should I care about Haiti, I am not black, nor from the country.

Why should I care about the expulsion of criminal foreigners (even the one born here) I am not a criminal and I am not one of those foreigners that the swiss are threaten by...

If tomorrow you are dying on the sidewalk, why should I help you? I don't know you, I am busy and it won't change anything in my life that your alive or dead....

Good way of thinking isn't it? Don't care about anything that doesn't touch you directly. Mind your own business and F**k off the rest of the population because it doesn't concern me anyway!

Nicely pointed out and very well interpreted Nil....drinks on me for that one
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