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  #601  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:19
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Wow!

I am not sure how to call this statement...

Eh! Why should I care about the Minaret initiative? I am not muslim! Eh! Why should I care about women violence? I am not a woman. Why should I care about Haiti, I am not black, nor from the country.

Why should I care about the expulsion of criminal foreigners (even the one born here) I am not a criminal and I am not one of those foreigners that the swiss are threaten by...

If tomorrow you are dying on the sidewalk, why should I help you? I don't know you, I am busy and it won't change anything in my life that your alive or dead....

Good way of thinking isn't it? Don't care about anything that doesn't touch you directly. Mind your own business and F**k off the rest of the population because it doesn't concern me anyway!

Nicely pointed out and very well interpreted Nil....drinks on me for that one
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  #602  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:21
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Feeling Swiss?` (Yodelihohi hihe huhu ) What does feeling have to do with it? Besides, a lot of them look cranky and miserable.

Some people choose not to get Swiss citizenship. Perhaps their home country won't allow dual citizenship. Perhaps they don't want to spend the time and money. Perhaps they've tried and were denied.
+ Swiss themselves try to skip going to their own army anyway.
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  #603  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:24
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Again, you shouldn't be speeding, simple.

As to the discrimination aspects - the numbers suggest there is a problem with a certain group of individuals, that's why it passed. I don't have anything against "foreigners", to the Swiss I am a foreigner too, I just don't like people from abroad walking all over the laws of this state and then costing a lot of money because of it.
I like the speeding example: Several high ranking SVP politicians have been speeding and did in fact get a record for it.

In the "developed world" we have some very basic principles. Probably the most important one is that since we got rid of all the Landvögte: All people are supposed to be the same in front of the law. The law defines what is ok and what not and if you break it - what punishment you should get. So the SVP politicians got their fair share of "daily wages" for their deeds.

According to the initiative, if they happened to have another passport - no matter if they lived here all their life -they should be deported. The people behind the initiative will easily agree that the point is to "raise the bar" for foreigners: They would not only get the punishment the locals get, but a severe one on top - having to leave their place of residence and probably family behind. So: The idea and basis of the entire initivative as well as the Gegenvorschlag is to treat people differently based on their nationality. This is the very essence of the term "discrimination". End of story. The law, pretty much regardless of the details that still need to be worked out will therefore not hold for a second in front of the European court for human rights in Strassbourg. And then the next "anti EU" campaign will follow as those bad guys from the EU are "against democracy".
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  #604  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:24
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No, of course it isn't a good way of thinking. But neither is hysteria, paranoia or ignoring what was really voted on: criminal foreigners and not foreigners in general.

It was a pathetic attempt to relieve the fear expressed on this board. Obviously it failed. I will ask for it to be deleted since it can easily be taken out of context.
Good initiative!

You know, I understand what is the problem about the criminal here. I got the point. But what is absolutely not acceptable is to kick out people who lives here since years and generations.

You want to kick out someone who lives here since, 1-3-5 years who already have a record, I agree with you.

You want to kick someone who always been here, have his whole family, job, friends, life but isn't ''swiss''? This is not acceptable!

This initiative is against ALL foreigners, no matter their history, background and level of crime. Not acceptable.
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Old 29.11.2010, 17:25
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It was a pathetic attempt to relieve the fear expressed on this board. Obviously it failed. I will ask for it to be deleted since it can easily be taken out of context.
Actually, I thought it was quite funny, although I don't agree with some of your other comments
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  #606  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:27
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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Again it's not about crime, let me get this simple:
  1. Swiss Citizen X (who believed and voted for SVP all the way): Foreigners take our jobs, damage our salary scale, make lots of Swiss unemployed, force their own culture,.....etc (Just a thought)
  2. SVP: We ban minarates, we deport foreigner criminals,....etc (Supported by false facts of course)
  3. Adding 1+2= Average Swiss Citizen X hates foreigners because of previous fears, bad press / media and SVP intense campaigns
  4. Foreigners Vs Swiss Citizen X = Big wall of hate and unease.
  5. Result: Swiss Citizen X feel unsafe around foreigners, and foreigners feel unwelcome around Swiss Citizen X

Hope this explains more my point
You know, this post is sort of annoying me.

It's perfectly possible to want foreigners who commit crimes to be deported, be against the building of minarets and not be filled with hate & prejudice. And not think the "foreigners are stealing out jobs.... or "building big walls of hate", etc".

I'm a foreigner and have no problem with these two laws (deportation/minarets). I know perfectly normal Swiss people who are also in agreement with these laws and they don't hate foreigners or think they are "stealing jobs", etc.

Swiss people have brains & can think for themselves. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean they are all "brainwashed, fear mongering, hate monsters".
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  #607  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:30
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No, of course it isn't a good way of thinking. But neither is hysteria, paranoia or ignoring what was really voted on: criminal foreigners and not foreigners in general.

It was a pathetic attempt to relieve the fear expressed on this board. Obviously it failed. I will ask for it to be deleted since it can easily be taken out of context.
Olygirl, i know you were trying to get things presented in a nice way and myself i appreciate this and believe lots of members would appreciate it to.

What really annoys me and even hurts me is that I've been here for 5 years, got very well integrated, have so many friends all across the country and for once i felt home being here, all of a sudden i don't feel secured no more, it makes me feel like whatever i'm gonna do in my lifetime, there will always be this barrier that has been built by bloody politicians, call me emotional or whatever, but i'm a human being after all.
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  #608  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Good initiative!

But what is absolutely not acceptable is to kick out people who lives here since years and generations.
I agree. It's high time that foreigners who are born, raised and have done their schooling here (up to 18-20 years of age) should automatically become Swiss citizens.

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This initiative is against ALL foreigners, no matter their history, background and level of crime. Not acceptable.
This is, again, where we disagree.
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  #609  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:33
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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It's perfectly possible to want foreigners who commit crimes to be deported, be against the building of minarets and not be filled with hate & prejudice.
No, it is not.

If you agree that foreign criminals should get a more severe punishment than Swiss, you are discriminating - see my post above.

If you are against a specific religious building - not for the shape, but the religious usage of it - then you are discriminating based on religion.

There is no way to be a cosmopolitan and open person and in the same time against some of the most basic principles of an open and tolerant society. Yes, you can be against crime or the negative aspects of Islam. But these votes were discrimation.
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Old 29.11.2010, 17:35
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Like people who were born here and grew up here?
They should & can become Swiss. What's the problem?
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Old 29.11.2010, 17:35
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Olygirl, i know you were trying to get things presented in a nice way and myself i appreciate this and believe lots of members would appreciate it to.

What really annoys me and even hurts me is that I've been here for 5 years, got very well integrated, have so many friends all across the country and for once i felt home being here, all of a sudden i don't feel secured no more, it makes me feel like whatever i'm gonna do in my lifetime, there will always be this barrier that has been built by bloody politicians, call me emotional or whatever, but i'm a human being after all.
Talk to some Swiss and voice your frustration. You might be pleasantly surprised on how they answer. And believe me, I know where you are coming from but if you are an upstanding resident, you will be appreciated.
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Old 29.11.2010, 17:36
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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According to the initiative, if they happened to have another passport - no matter if they lived here all their life -they should be deported. The people behind the initiative will easily agree that the point is to "raise the bar" for foreigners: They would not only get the punishment the locals get, but a severe one on top - having to leave their place of residence and probably family behind. So: The idea and basis of the entire initivative as well as the Gegenvorschlag is to treat people differently based on their nationality. This is the very essence of the term "discrimination". End of story. The law, pretty much regardless of the details that still need to be worked out will therefore not hold for a second in front of the European court for human rights in Strassbourg. And then the next "anti EU" campaign will follow as those bad guys from the EU are "against democracy".
What blubbery fluff.

I realized the campaign posters insulted some foreigners. Weighing that against the value of the initiative as a crime deterrent - If the initiative were to keep 1 foreigner from committing a crime, and quite possibly spare him, his family or even his victim of a crime, I would still say it is a good deal.

About the fear and anxiety of being a foreigner in Switzerland after this initiative, if you aren't committing a crime, you don't have anything to worry about. Anything beyond that is something you make up in your own head.

And as far as the EU is concerned, they don't have jurisdiction in this country.
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  #613  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:38
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I have asked this question before: how has this initiative affected your life directly? Have you felt any consequences?

The mass hysteria and rheotoric boggles my mind.
Besides that I download tv series over bittorrent? so directly not, but there is a trend and if you don't see this then you're either A. A swiss or B. recently arrived here...

Second, they way SVP are doing their campaigns are tasteless and xenophobic. And if you hear them talk in TV and other media...makes you sick.

If you're a foreigners and think that this does not bothers you, you might think twice, trust me SVP won't stop at this, they have an agenda directed by Dr. "mini-Goebbels" Mörgeli...

I have invested 10 years of my life here, learned the language fluently, built a house, my son is born here i.e. done everything by the book. But I still get glaring or bitter comments from locals once they hear that I'm not Swiss, and it got worse...much worse since I arrived here.

This is a trend that SVP started...There are people where I live who think that people from south-eastern and eastern europe are born thieves and violators.
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Old 29.11.2010, 17:38
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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What really annoys me and even hurts me is that I've been here for 5 years, got very well integrated, have so many friends all across the country and for once i felt home being here, all of a sudden i don't feel secured no more, it makes me feel like whatever i'm gonna do in my lifetime, there will always be this barrier that has been built by bloody politicians, call me emotional or whatever, but i'm a human being after all.

Dude, please HTFU! Seriously, for your own sake, HTFU!
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  #615  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:39
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Phos, even without the big word "jurisdiction", there are a couple of papers in Bruxelles with Swiss signatures on them. Or do you imply that a Swiss signature is worth nothing?

EDIT: Please look up the concept "rhetorical question" before answering this message.
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Old 29.11.2010, 17:41
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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It's perfectly possible to want foreigners who commit crimes to be deported, be against the building of minarets and not be filled with hate & prejudice.
Maybe not hate, but definitely prejudice.
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Old 29.11.2010, 17:42
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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What blubbery fluff.

I realized the campaign posters insulted some foreigners. Weighing that against the value of the initiative as a crime deterrent - If the initiative were to keep 1 foreigner from committing a crime, and quite possibly spare him, his family or even his victim of a crime, I would still say it is a good deal.

About the fear and anxiety of being a foreigner in Switzerland after this initiative, if you aren't committing a crime, you don't have anything to worry about. Anything beyond that is something you make up in your own head.

And as far as the EU is concerned, they don't have jurisdiction in this country.
I just love how people paint everything black and white...wow...why stop by deportation...why not public beating?..."behave...otherwise you get the paddle...woooopppaaaa!!!"

LET THE WITCHHUNT BEGIN!!!!!!!!!!
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  #618  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:43
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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They should & can become Swiss. What's the problem?
errrm... yeah, 'cos it is soooo easy to get Swiss Citizenship.

I know that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, but really, that's all I could think of saying.
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  #619  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:44
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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And as far as the EU is concerned, they don't have jurisdiction in this country.
For the record: The European court of human rights is not an EU organ, it is part of the council of Europe. (You do not need to know the difference, I would estimate that >90% of Swiss do not know it either.) And it does in fact have jurisdiction here as the federal government signed the international agreements to accept the courts ruling on very basic matters of human rights. I bet back then no Swiss ever believed that of all countries Switzerland would get in trouble in that area.
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Old 29.11.2010, 17:44
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Re: Switzerland debates tough deportation proposal.

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No, it is not.

If you agree that foreign criminals should get a more severe punishment than Swiss, you are discriminating - see my post above.

If you are against a specific religious building - not for the shape, but the religious usage of it - then you are discriminating based on religion.

There is no way to be a cosmopolitan and open person and in the same time against some of the most basic principles of an open and tolerant society. Yes, you can be against crime or the negative aspects of Islam. But these votes were discrimation.
Having different requirements for people based on whether they are citizens or not is not the same thing as being hateful or have a bad opinion of others.

People who are not Swiss are already treated differently administratively.
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