Nicely pointed out and very well interpreted Nil....drinks on me for that one

+ Swiss themselves try to skip going to their own army anyway.

I like the speeding example: Several high ranking SVP politicians have been speeding and did in fact get a record for it.

In the "developed world" we have some very basic principles. Probably the most important one is that since we got rid of all the Landvögte: All people are supposed to be the same in front of the law. The law defines what is ok and what not and if you break it - what punishment you should get. So the SVP politicians got their fair share of "daily wages" for their deeds.

According to the initiative, if they happened to have another passport - no matter if they lived here all their life -they should be deported. The people behind the initiative will easily agree that the point is to "raise the bar" for foreigners: They would not only get the punishment the locals get, but a severe one on top - having to leave their place of residence and probably family behind. So: The idea and basis of the entire initivative as well as the Gegenvorschlag is to treat people differently based on their nationality. This is the very essence of the term "discrimination". End of story. The law, pretty much regardless of the details that still need to be worked out will therefore not hold for a second in front of the European court for human rights in Strassbourg. And then the next "anti EU" campaign will follow as those bad guys from the EU are "against democracy".

Good initiative!

You know, I understand what is the problem about the criminal here. I got the point. But what is absolutely not acceptable is to kick out people who lives here since years and generations.

You want to kick out someone who lives here since, 1-3-5 years who already have a record, I agree with you.

You want to kick someone who always been here, have his whole family, job, friends, life but isn't ''swiss''? This is not acceptable!

This initiative is against ALL foreigners, no matter their history, background and level of crime. Not acceptable.

Actually, I thought it was quite funny, although I don't agree with some of your other comments

You know, this post is sort of annoying me.

It's perfectly possible to want foreigners who commit crimes to be deported, be against the building of minarets and not be filled with hate & prejudice. And not think the "foreigners are stealing out jobs.... or "building big walls of hate", etc".

I'm a foreigner and have no problem with these two laws (deportation/minarets). I know perfectly normal Swiss people who are also in agreement with these laws and they don't hate foreigners or think they are "stealing jobs", etc.

Swiss people have brains & can think for themselves. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean they are all "brainwashed, fear mongering, hate monsters".

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Olygirl, i know you were trying to get things presented in a nice way and myself i appreciate this and believe lots of members would appreciate it to.

What really annoys me and even hurts me is that I've been here for 5 years, got very well integrated, have so many friends all across the country and for once i felt home being here, all of a sudden i don't feel secured no more, it makes me feel like whatever i'm gonna do in my lifetime, there will always be this barrier that has been built by bloody politicians, call me emotional or whatever, but i'm a human being after all.

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Silence is an argument carried out by other means.

I agree. It's high time that foreigners who are born, raised and have done their schooling here (up to 18-20 years of age) should automatically become Swiss citizens.

This is, again, where we disagree.

No, it is not.

If you agree that foreign criminals should get a more severe punishment than Swiss, you are discriminating - see my post above.

If you are against a specific religious building - not for the shape, but the religious usage of it - then you are discriminating based on religion.

There is no way to be a cosmopolitan and open person and in the same time against some of the most basic principles of an open and tolerant society. Yes, you can be against crime or the negative aspects of Islam. But these votes were discrimation.

They should & can become Swiss. What's the problem?

Talk to some Swiss and voice your frustration. You might be pleasantly surprised on how they answer. And believe me, I know where you are coming from but if you are an upstanding resident, you will be appreciated.

What blubbery fluff.

I realized the campaign posters insulted some foreigners. Weighing that against the value of the initiative as a crime deterrent - If the initiative were to keep 1 foreigner from committing a crime, and quite possibly spare him, his family or even his victim of a crime, I would still say it is a good deal.

About the fear and anxiety of being a foreigner in Switzerland after this initiative, if you aren't committing a crime, you don't have anything to worry about. Anything beyond that is something you make up in your own head.

And as far as the EU is concerned, they don't have jurisdiction in this country.

Besides that I download tv series over bittorrent? so directly not, but there is a trend and if you don't see this then you're either A. A swiss or B. recently arrived here...

Second, they way SVP are doing their campaigns are tasteless and xenophobic. And if you hear them talk in TV and other media...makes you sick.

If you're a foreigners and think that this does not bothers you, you might think twice, trust me SVP won't stop at this, they have an agenda directed by Dr. "mini-Goebbels" Mörgeli...

I have invested 10 years of my life here, learned the language fluently, built a house, my son is born here i.e. done everything by the book. But I still get glaring or bitter comments from locals once they hear that I'm not Swiss, and it got worse...much worse since I arrived here.

This is a trend that SVP started...There are people where I live who think that people from south-eastern and eastern europe are born thieves and violators.

Dude, please HTFU! Seriously, for your own sake, HTFU!

Phos, even without the big word "jurisdiction", there are a couple of papers in Bruxelles with Swiss signatures on them. Or do you imply that a Swiss signature is worth nothing?

EDIT: Please look up the concept "rhetorical question" before answering this message.

Maybe not hate, but definitely prejudice.

I just love how people paint everything black and white...wow...why stop by deportation...why not public beating?..."behave...otherwise you get the paddle...woooopppaaaa!!!"

LET THE WITCHHUNT BEGIN!!!!!!!!!!

errrm... yeah, 'cos it is soooo easy to get Swiss Citizenship.

I know that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, but really, that's all I could think of saying.

For the record: The European court of human rights is not an EU organ, it is part of the council of Europe. (You do not need to know the difference, I would estimate that >90% of Swiss do not know it either.) And it does in fact have jurisdiction here as the federal government signed the international agreements to accept the courts ruling on very basic matters of human rights. I bet back then no Swiss ever believed that of all countries Switzerland would get in trouble in that area.

Having different requirements for people based on whether they are citizens or not is not the same thing as being hateful or have a bad opinion of others.

People who are not Swiss are already treated differently administratively.