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  #621  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:47
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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And as far as the EU is concerned, they don't have jurisdiction in this country.
Treverus mentioned the European Court of Human Rights.

Switzerland has signed and ratified the related convention.

There is no formal link with the EU, but I doubt that will stop the SVP portraying it as supra-national, European intervention.
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  #622  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:48
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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errrm... yeah, 'cos it is soooo easy to get Swiss Citizenship.

I know that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, but really, that's all I could think of saying.
Sorry. the post I replied to says that these kids were born here and have lived here their whole lives. There are systems in place that allow these kids to get citizenship relatively easily since years under 20 count double and since voting has been pretty much eliminated. There only a few places where it's still difficult to become Swiss.
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  #623  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:49
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

...i see the next SVP initiatives...

"PRO-ACTIVE DEPORTATION"..."they might not have committed a crime yet...but to be sure, lets deport!"...

"SWISS JOBS FOR SWISS"

"ADDITIONAL TAXES FOR FOREIGNERS"

"ZERO TOLERANCE FOR ALL CRIMES BY FOREIGNERS"
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  #624  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:51
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The German article 47 section 1 in the Foreigners Law says :

Reasons which make a deportation a definite final result are :
- a legal sentence due to one or more crimes to a definite prison-term of more than three years
- a legal sentence due to offences against drug laws or burglary to a definite prison term of more than two years
- various crimes as above, done within five years which resulted in a combined length of definite prison terms of more than three years
Where do you get this from? It could be your version of the information is different to juris.de which is the official version. German law is based on paragraphs and you can ask any German Juris student to quote the paragraph as they learn them all by heart!!!

Its actually Paragraph 51-58 of the visitor law (aufenthaltsgesetz) and what you are quoting above is a poor interpretation of Paragraph 53.
Points 1 and 3 are together.
Point 2 is drugs or riot
Point 3 which you have not mentioned is smuggling people.

And looking at the decision made by the Swiss people, this is not possible to implement word for word without Switzerland at least reneging on if not breaching international commitments and agreements.

There is clearly nothing wrong with expelling an undesired individual, as is common practice in many countries. It is the automatic without consideration of circumstances part that will at some point lead to conflict with a whole host of international agreements.
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  #625  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:51
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Sorry. the post I replied to says that these kids were born here and have lived here their whole lives. There are systems in place that allow these kids to get citizenship relatively easily since years under 20 count double and since voting has been pretty much eliminated. There only a few places where it's still difficult to become Swiss.
I'll just have to stay clean for another 17 years until my youngest is old enough then. Maybe by then I'll have picked up enough Swiss to get by in my own application
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  #626  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:52
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Sorry. the post I replied to says that these kids were born here and have lived here their whole lives. There are systems in place that allow these kids to get citizenship relatively easily since years under 20 count double and since voting has been pretty much eliminated. There only a few places where it's still difficult to become Swiss.
...and now with the new image of foreigners (brought to you by neighborhood party SVP) I'm sure that people in gemeinde will vote NO for foreigners which wants to apply for a swiss citizenship...also people with surnames ending with -IC are per default not allowed to apply...
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  #627  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Feeling Swiss?` (Yodelihohi hihe huhu ) What does feeling have to do with it? Besides, a lot of them look cranky and miserable.

Some people choose not to get Swiss citizenship. Perhaps their home country won't allow dual citizenship. Perhaps they don't want to spend the time and money. Perhaps they've tried and were denied.
Because people are saying 'these kids who have lived here their whole lives and don't know their country of origin, then they get deport to a place they don't know, " etc. etc.

Well, if they feel they are Swiss and not their country of origin because they lived here their whole lives, etc. then they should become Swiss, no? It's only logical. If your country of origin doesn't allow dual citizenship you have to pick one, CH or country of origin. If you don't pick Switzerland you will always have the possibility to be deported.

Feeling had everything to do with it.
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  #628  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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...i see the next SVP initiatives...

"PRO-ACTIVE DEPORTATION"..."they might not have committed a crime yet...but to be sure, lets deport!"...

"SWISS JOBS FOR SWISS"

"ADDITIONAL TAXES FOR FOREIGNERS"

"ZERO TOLERANCE FOR ALL CRIMES BY FOREIGNERS"
Among other things they're initially looking to streamline the asylum process and strengthen the naturalisation process.

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/18186063
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  #629  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:55
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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+ Swiss themselves try to skip going to their own army anyway.
They don't "try" they either do it or they don't. You can either do military or do civil service or day a fee. Plus if you are too old when you become Swiss they won't take you in the army even if you want to go.
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  #630  
Old 29.11.2010, 17:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Sorry. the post I replied to says that these kids were born here and have lived here their whole lives. There are systems in place that allow these kids to get citizenship relatively easily since years under 20 count double and since voting has been pretty much eliminated. There only a few places where it's still difficult to become Swiss.
If it's merely a formality why should it have any bearing on sentencing? Shouldn't the law instead say, "If a person is entitled to citizenship". You're penalising someone for not filling in some forms.
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  #631  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Actually yes they can:

Der Gesetzgeber umschreibt die Tatbestände nach Absatz 3 näher. Er kann sie um weitere Tatbestände ergänzen

But it shows the strength of the initiative that no one has an idea how the law will look like. By the sounds of it will familiar to the counter initiative anyway. The SVP has promised the justice minister that misdemeanors won't be punished with expulsion so it looks like there will need to be a minimum sentence. The parlament can add plus any criminals who are sentenced to two years prision and there you go that's basically the counter initiative

Edit. Just wanted to add that the SVP seem to have found their success formula. Once they went against all foreigners they always lost so they're now going against the 'bad' foreigners like those evil muslims who keep their wifes locked up at home 'minarett initiative' and now against criminal foreigners. I'm expecting similar votes in the future. They're thinking about a law that requires all foreigners to sign a contract that they'll accept Swiss laws and traditions. I won't be surprised if a new initiative wants to stop any ex-cons moving here as well. (not that I would agree with it)

They of course CAN, but will not do so. "Der Gesetzgeber" means Nationalrat (House of Representatives) and Ständerat (Senate) where the Gegenvorschlag chaps have a massive majority. They of course have to accept the basic text of the new law, will however not make it heavier than it already is. And so they will make their "defining work" very carefully, by making these definitions compatible with signed international agreements, the federal constitution and existing laws. Add to this that they may be bound by the new law as such, but are completely free to amend other laws in a way which will reduce the effects of the new or rather revised one.

Last edited by Wollishofener; 29.11.2010 at 19:12.
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  #632  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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...and now with the new image of foreigners (brought to you by neighborhood party SVP) I'm sure that people in gemeinde will vote NO for foreigners which wants to apply for a swiss citizenship...also people with surnames ending with -IC are per default not allowed to apply...
Now you are just fear mongering yourself. The Swiss have already serious attempts to fix the problem of the Segundi. This has been addressed and it has change significantly since I move to CH 10 years ago.

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If it's merely a formality why should it have any bearing on sentencing? Shouldn't the law instead say, "If a person is entitled to citizenship". You're penalising someone for not filling in some forms.
Maybe now they will fill out those forms before committing crimes.


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I'll just have to stay clean for another 17 years until my youngest is old enough then. Maybe by then I'll have picked up enough Swiss to get by in my own application
Well, I'd suggest you not kill anyone until then. But I do understand that sometimes it can't be helped. But since you are EU I guess it won't matter.
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  #633  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:08
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Now you are just fear mongering yourself. The Swiss have already serious attempts to fix the problem of the Segundi. This has been addressed and it has change significantly since I move to CH 10 years ago.
you would believe...but I red about many examples were people from southeastern europe were denied citizenship. One example was a 3rd generation women from Balcan...she was denied citizenship due to a minor traffic offense, the official statement were something like "you are not allowed citizenship due to you police history" and she was like - what the xxx, so they checked and saw it was only a minor traffic offense (100 CHF ticket)...so sorry to ruin your fantasy world...but this is reality already for a lot of people...
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  #634  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:13
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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That is in fact, exactly it - exactly the way I feel right now. It's not the vote or the law itself - it's more where is it going? Is my C permit safe? Is my house safe (we also own a house)? Will my children be treated like black sheep at school? What is their future like here?

I just have the opposite reaction I suppose - it makes me want to go home rather than become a Swiss citizen. I wouldn't want to stay where I feel that the government is against me - even if it is a lovely place to be (and I really do like Switzerland, and we are in fact very respectful of the Swiss culture and the Swiss way of doing things.)

I suppose I also imagine that one day if the SVP had their way you wouldn't be able to become a citizen anyway - so even if you did it now, they could probably find a way to take it away from you later on because your great grandma wasn't Swiss.
You are contradicting yourself. If you "like Switzreland and respect their way of doing things" why are you complaining?...no offense...Just asking.
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  #635  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:14
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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you would believe...but I red about many examples were people from southeastern europe were denied citizenship. One example was a 3rd generation women from Balcan...she was denied citizenship due to a minor traffic offense, the official statement were something like "you are not allowed citizenship due to you police history" and she was like - what the xxx, so they checked and saw it was only a minor traffic offense (100 CHF ticket)...so sorry to ruin your fantasy world...but this is reality already for a lot of people...


You know, you don't have to be rude. I don't live in a "fantasy world" just because I disagree with you on this initiative. I'm very well aware that some people still have difficulty becoming Swiss. But like I said, it's not nearly as difficult as it used to be. Also, you have given one example. How many people have no problems with their applications? I don't know, either. But giving one example doesn't give the whole story.
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  #636  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:19
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You know, you don't have to be rude. I don't live in a "fantasy world" just because I disagree with you on this initiative. I'm very well aware that some people still have difficulty becoming Swiss. But like I said, it's not nearly as difficult as it used to be. Also, you have given one example. How many people have no problems with their applications? I don't know, either. But giving one example doesn't give the whole story.
sorry for being "rude", how many example do you want? Is it really that important? not really...
And now it's easier because you don't have to pay 10'000CHF, but now you have to make these tests (which even swiss themselves can't pass) and of course have to speak a language which does not exists...very convenient.
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  #637  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:24
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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sorry for being "rude", how many example do you want? Is it really that important? not really...
And now it's easier because you don't have to pay 10'000CHF, but now you have to make these tests (which even swiss themselves can't pass) and of course have to speak a language which does not exists...very convenient.
I don't want examples I prefer facts & statistics. How many applied? How many were rejected? Why? Where? etc. Then I might make an opinion.

Those tests have always been there they are not new. The Swiss passed those those history tests when they were in school. They just happened to forget it all later as will the foreigners, once they too pass the test, they will forget all that they learned to pass the test.

So, I guess they should should change the language then to one that you like better.
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  #638  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I'm sorry, but that generalisation and scaremongering is just as bad as those who scream about the "islamification of Europe".
You cannot predict where it will lead.
Exactly, the SVP guy admitted as much in an interview, he said it's not about crime, but about tapping in to people's dislike of foreigners... surprise surprise. And also, people who say it's only criminals who would get upset about this, well I am very law abiding, I just dislike xenophobia and ignorance, wherever it may be, and Switzerland is not special in this regard, it just goes about it in a unique way ;-)
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  #639  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:29
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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sorry for being "rude", how many example do you want? Is it really that important? not really...
And now it's easier because you don't have to pay 10'000CHF, but now you have to make these tests (which even swiss themselves can't pass) and of course have to speak a language which does not exists...very convenient.
Just like Canada ,USA When did they abolish French ,German ,Italian and Romanisch?
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  #640  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:35
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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They of course CAN, but will not do so. "Der Gesetzgeber" means Nationalrat (House of Representatives) and Ständerat (Senate) where the Gegenvorschlag chaps have a massive majority. They of course have to accept the basic text of the new law, will however not make it heavier than it already is. And so they will make their "defining work" very carefully, by making these definitions compatible with signed international agreements, the federal constitution and existing laws. Add to this that they may be bound by the new as such, but are completely free to amend other laws in a way which will reduce the effects of the new or rather revised one.
Yeah I saw afterwards that despite your answer looking like a fact it was actually your opinion. I think we know too little to definitely say anything. It's not that impossible that the parliament adds financial fraud fraud to the mix. Widmer-Schlumpf was advertising that the speedsters from Schönenwerd wouldn't get expelled. Maybe the SVP will want to rectify this. Maybe parliament some how decides it might as well include all convictions of 2 year plus bearing in mind the other parties won't want to look soft towards crime.Especially with elections being next year.

I'm not saying any of this will happen but I think its way too early to say absolutely nothing will be changed on the initiative.
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