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Old 29.11.2010, 18:39
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Phos, even without the big word "jurisdiction", there are a couple of papers in Bruxelles with Swiss signatures on them. Or do you imply that a Swiss signature is worth nothing?
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Treverus mentioned the European Court of Human Rights.

Switzerland has signed and ratified the related convention.

There is no formal link with the EU, but I doubt that will stop the SVP portraying it as supra-national, European intervention.

What Human Rights violation does this initiative contain? And what makes you think any such deportation laws would apply only to Switzerland while other countries have been practicing it all along.

Seriously, for some reason, you are applying a double standard to Switzerland. I have no idea why you think certain standards should apply to Switzerland, and not to other countries.

Last edited by Phos; 29.11.2010 at 18:51.
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  #642  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:41
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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For the record: The European court of human rights is not an EU organ, it is part of the council of Europe. (You do not need to know the difference, I would estimate that >90% of Swiss do not know it either.) And it does in fact have jurisdiction here as the federal government signed the international agreements to accept the courts ruling on very basic matters of human rights. I bet back then no Swiss ever believed that of all countries Switzerland would get in trouble in that area.
Let's not forget that Switzerland is a full member of the Council of Europe, as well as of most other European organisations and agreements.
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  #643  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:47
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Because people are saying 'these kids who have lived here their whole lives and don't know their country of origin, then they get deport to a place they don't know, " etc. etc.

Well, if they feel they are Swiss and not their country of origin because they lived here their whole lives, etc. then they should become Swiss, no? It's only logical. If your country of origin doesn't allow dual citizenship you have to pick one, CH or country of origin. If you don't pick Switzerland you will always have the possibility to be deported.

Feeling had everything to do with it.
Well, a person who has been here for 6 months and claim to "feel" Swiss, and therefore should not be deported would be ridiculous. Someone who has been here their whole lives is more factual. But I see what you mean by "feeling".

Yes, they should decide if they want to become Swiss. Some choose not to when it entails forfeiting their other citizenship. This initiative may compel many to apply. Also, they should reform immigration processes to facilitate some of these.
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  #644  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:52
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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So, I guess they should should change the language then to one that you like better.
No standard German would do just fine...
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  #645  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Where do you get this from? It could be your version of the information is different to juris.de which is the official version. German law is based on paragraphs and you can ask any German Juris student to quote the paragraph as they learn them all by heart!!!

Its actually Paragraph 51-58 of the visitor law (aufenthaltsgesetz) and what you are quoting above is a poor interpretation of Paragraph 53.
Points 1 and 3 are together.
Point 2 is drugs or riot
Point 3 which you have not mentioned is smuggling people.

And looking at the decision made by the Swiss people, this is not possible to implement word for word without Switzerland at least reneging on if not breaching international commitments and agreements.

There is clearly nothing wrong with expelling an undesired individual, as is common practice in many countries. It is the automatic without consideration of circumstances part that will at some point lead to conflict with a whole host of international agreements.
A) to bring the whole sh... into agreement with both international agreements and committments and with other Swiss laws and regulations already in existence and valid is the challenge to the legislators in the Federal Congress.
B) The exact definitions to be worked out have to include "circumstances" and limitations, exactly BECAUSE of that "automatism"
C) the source I used here about Germany is
http://www.123recht.net/article.asp?...a=257&ccheck=1
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  #646  
Old 29.11.2010, 18:57
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I'll just have to stay clean for another 17 years until my youngest is old enough then. Maybe by then I'll have picked up enough Swiss to get by in my own application
Not more than 12 years, as the years between birth and age 10 count quite normally, so that your youngest in 12 years can apply for the Swiss citizenship, just as you can.
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  #647  
Old 29.11.2010, 19:04
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Just like Canada ,USA When did they abolish French ,German ,Italian and Romanisch?
sorry I meant "these new harder tests"...there were always tests...
sorry I know only standard german, but it isn't accepted here...
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  #648  
Old 29.11.2010, 19:12
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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sorry I meant "these new harder tests"...there were always tests...
sorry I know only standard german, but it isn't accepted here...

I wasn't sure about this so I looked what the rules for Aargau is. Standard german is accepted




Sind die formellen Voraussetzungen erfüllt, erfolgt die Prüfung der materiellen Einbürgerungsvoraussetzungen:

"Beachtung der Rechtsordnung" (strafrechtlicher und betreibungsrechtlicher Leumund, Er füllung der Steuerpflicht, Erfüllung der familienrechtlichen Unterhaltsverpflichtungen)
"Integration" (Vertrautheit mit den schweizerischen, kantonalen und örtlichen Lebensge wohn heiten)
"genügend Sprachkenntnisse" (Verständigung in Mundart oder Schriftsprache)
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  #649  
Old 29.11.2010, 19:15
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You are contradicting yourself. If you "like Switzreland and respect their way of doing things" why are you complaining?...no offense...Just asking.
It is not because you like the life style and the way they live that it means you have to stop to think and analyse how it is done.

She doesn't have to switch her brain off because she moved here.
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  #650  
Old 29.11.2010, 19:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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you would believe...but I red about many examples were people from southeastern europe were denied citizenship. One example was a 3rd generation women from Balcan...she was denied citizenship due to a minor traffic offense, the official statement were something like "you are not allowed citizenship due to you police history" and she was like - what the xxx, so they checked and saw it was only a minor traffic offense (100 CHF ticket)...so sorry to ruin your fantasy world...but this is reality already for a lot of people...
Now let's talk rough facts. I say that a majority of Swiss are not xenophobe which might sound nice, HOWEVER at least 40% have their "reservations" and heavy DISlikes about people from ex-Yugoslavia and Albania. And some 10 to 20 % simply hate the "Balkanese" outright .
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  #651  
Old 29.11.2010, 19:29
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I wasn't sure about this so I looked what the rules for Aargau is. Standard german is accepted




Sind die formellen Voraussetzungen erfüllt, erfolgt die Prüfung der materiellen Einbürgerungsvoraussetzungen:

"Beachtung der Rechtsordnung" (strafrechtlicher und betreibungsrechtlicher Leumund, Er füllung der Steuerpflicht, Erfüllung der familienrechtlichen Unterhaltsverpflichtungen)
"Integration" (Vertrautheit mit den schweizerischen, kantonalen und örtlichen Lebensge wohn heiten)
"genügend Sprachkenntnisse" (Verständigung in Mundart oder Schriftsprache)
It probably means that you should be able to read and write Schriftsprache and speak and understand Mundart..
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  #652  
Old 29.11.2010, 19:38
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I could give you tons of links to cities where they make no mention of needing to explicitly speak Swiss German but seeing you're so sure that this does happen I'm sure you can provide the link to the community which says high German is not enough............ I know tons of people who have the Swiss pass while not speaking Swiss German.
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  #653  
Old 29.11.2010, 19:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It is not because you like the life style and the way they live that it means you have to stop to think and analyse how it is done.

She doesn't have to switch her brain off because she moved here.
Yes but what can she do about it?...Why make yourself miserable. IF its that bad for her then leave...Its simple really. Contradicting oneself (all in the same sentence) sounds a bit like the "brain is swtiched off to me"...well where Switzerland is concerned anyways. These "holier than thou" individuals complaining about the passing of this initiative hide behind their own xenophobic attitudes. I am sure there are many instances where these very same people have not hesitated to make a joke or stereotype about a certain culture of people. But you see...its not cute when the shoe is on the other foot, not that I feel this vote is xenophobic or racist by any means. Some of these very same people would shout with joy if Switzerland openly announced that they love people from a certain country and therefore "they don't have to be concerned" if it were their country. They want recognition according to their nationalities but Switzerland has surprised them. I will admit Switzerland has crushed a lot of egos, once you come to this country its better to leaveegos behind. People are shocked that Switzerland has a backbone and "make their own decisions" regardless of what others think. If its so bothering you just have to leave...i'm not trying to be negative or rude here,and I understand how difficult it can be to make yourself comfortable in a country like Switzerland for a number of reasons. But I see it as the only way to relieve individuals suffering who find being a foreigner in Switzerland psychologically humiliating.Its best to leave or you will make yourself unhappy...sorry

Last edited by ProsperityJoy; 29.11.2010 at 20:06.
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  #654  
Old 29.11.2010, 20:05
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

For the language, you can become Swiss with active High German and passive Swiss German in Basel city, Reinach and Aesch. I only know examples in those three places.

Fact just for fun: If Rhetoromanish is your only national language (and you speak other languages not official in CH), you may not be accepted for citizenship in some bilingual romansh/german speaking municipalities in Graubünden/Grischun. But in those communities, they know all about your life by the time you are eligible for citizenship so you'll get signals from the officials before the offical application as to what you should do. You can become citizen of Scuol without German, though.
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  #655  
Old 29.11.2010, 20:07
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Aren't we deviating from the topic of this thread by going into variations of German ?
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  #656  
Old 29.11.2010, 20:24
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You are contradicting yourself. If you "like Switzreland and respect their way of doing things" why are you complaining?...no offense...Just asking.
What I mean is that I like living here - so although I will probably never be Swiss or "properly integrated" (because my German is diabolical), I still put my rubbish out on the right day. And I try not to make noise on a Sunday or after 10pm. I say hi to my neighbours and do my best to converse with them. I try to understand when things here go against what happens at home.

But there are some things I can't accept. And I just cannot accept that the black sheep posters and the Ivan posters are OK. And I can't accept that this vote is OK either.

And as much as I do like living here I worry for the future of my children - like I would no matter where I lived - but here especially I worry about them being disadvantaged and discriminated against for not being Swiss.
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Old 29.11.2010, 21:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Well, a person who has been here for 6 months and claim to "feel" Swiss, and therefore should not be deported would be ridiculous. Someone who has been here their whole lives is more factual. But I see what you mean by "feeling".
I'm talking about specific people which I detailed, not those the have been here a day or 6 months and I didn't say anything about people "feeling" Swiss shouldn't be deported. Anyway, since you "know what I mean" why are you arguing with me?

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Yes, they should decide if they want to become Swiss. Some choose not to when it entails forfeiting their other citizenship. This initiative may compel many to apply. Also, they should reform immigration processes to facilitate some of these.
I agree with you.
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  #658  
Old 29.11.2010, 21:03
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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What I mean is that I like living here - so although I will probably never be Swiss or "properly integrated" (because my German is diabolical), I still put my rubbish out on the right day. And I try not to make noise on a Sunday or after 10pm. I say hi to my neighbours and do my best to converse with them. I try to understand when things here go against what happens at home.

But there are some things I can't accept. And I just cannot accept that the black sheep posters and the Ivan posters are OK. And I can't accept that this vote is OK either.

And as much as I do like living here I worry for the future of my children - like I would no matter where I lived - but here especially I worry about them being disadvantaged and discriminated against for not being Swiss.
"Worry is like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do but doesn't get you anywhere". People are discriminated against for all types of things too old, too young, too short, too tall etc...the discrimination you are "worrying yourself about" may never happen. Why would you hesitate not to leave Switzerland if you feel it would be to your childrens detriment not to? I tell you why. For the same reasons you feel apprehensive for staying. Switzerland is a pretty secure country with a good quality of living. Has this initiative affected your quality of living? As I mentioned before I understand the "blow to many egos here". Its as if Switzerland is saying "you can stay or you can go but you must follow the rules". And as adults that can be a pretty big blow because "we wanna do what we wanna do", the heck with the rules. There is no room for improvisation. In a way Switzerland is saying "we can do without you, but if you want to stay this is how it is"...bottom line you gonna have to get over this and not take it too seriously. Find a sense of humor about it, or you will cause your family to suffer, or...well...prepare to leave you have every right to.
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  #659  
Old 29.11.2010, 21:15
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Not really. Initiatives are screened by parlament before they are put to vote, and implementation is weighed against current treaties. In this case, it is not a human rights issue.
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just relax and stay on topic. Nothing was approved against human rights
the council of europe seems to disagree...

http://assembly.coe.int/ASP/NewsMana...sp?ID=6123&L=2
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Old 29.11.2010, 21:19
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Why would you hesitate not to leave Switzerland if you feel it would be to your childrens detriment not to? I tell you why.
No - I don't need you to tell me why I live here - I know why I live here thank you very much - and actually you don't because you don't know me at all.

I can't accept that if I find one thing unacceptable then I should bugger off? Is that it? That's the foreign policy all over isn't it. Don't agree with everything? Well bugger off then. I'm not allowed to say "sorry I find that unacceptable" I should just pack my bags.

The fact is simply that I already before felt insecure here as a foreigner. Now, today, I feel less secure than a week ago. Sorry if I haven't left yet - but when you have 2 children and a husband and jobs and own a house it's not so simple to up and leave when you feel like it.

But yes, if it were just about feelings then I think I would probably leave it's true.
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