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  #721  
Old 30.11.2010, 11:24
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I'm a voter. For me it clearly was about preventing crime. If we could kick out the Swiss who commit serious crimes as well, I'd be all for it. Unfortunately, Australia isn't too keen on taking our criminals anymore and many might find sending them to the Antartica is against human rights.

I agree about longer sentences for serious crimes.

I have faith that each criminal will be judged individually and no one will be expelled if they have no home country to go to.
Totally appreciate your input and would be happy if the majority would think the same way as you do, but this is not the case.

Unfortunately, faith and human rights are not something that SVP are willing to consider.
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  #722  
Old 30.11.2010, 11:26
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I'm a voter. For me it clearly was about preventing crime. If we could kick out the Swiss who commit serious crimes as well, I'd be all for it. Unfortunately, Australia isn't too keen on taking our criminals anymore and many might find sending them to the Antartica is against human rights.

I agree about longer sentences for serious crimes.

I have faith that each criminal will be judged individually and no one will be expelled if they have no home country to go to.
If a proposal was made to have harsher sentences for black criminals would that be simply anti-crime or would it be racist?
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  #723  
Old 30.11.2010, 11:27
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Totally appreciate your input and would be happy if the majority would think the same way as you do, but this is not the case.

Unfortunately, faith and human rights are not something that SVP are willing to consider.

Mowvich, how do you come to such conclusion about what the Swiss are thinking? Just about everybody has reached the conclusion it will not be automatic deportation.
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  #724  
Old 30.11.2010, 11:29
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If a proposal was made to have harsher sentences for black criminals would that be simply anti-crime or would it be racist?
But it wasn't and therefore the argument isn't relevant.
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  #725  
Old 30.11.2010, 11:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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But it wasn't and therefore the argument isn't relevant.
The argument has the same logical structure.
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  #726  
Old 30.11.2010, 11:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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So you folks really think you are qualified to judge on the behalf of the Swiss how they should perceive crime and how they should have voted on this initiative?
We're are one part of the equation so our input is definitely valid if not essential.

Swiss have the right to decide whatever with their own country and laws, but when it comes to amending the constitution against certain race, religion or social class (at least not for the right reasons as it seems), i find this really discriminative.
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  #727  
Old 30.11.2010, 11:39
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If a proposal was made to have harsher sentences for black criminals would that be simply anti-crime or would it be racist?
But it wasn't and therefore the argument isn't relevant.
The argument has the same logical structure.
Indeed it does.

The SVP line of logic:
"All foreigners are criminals (named Ivan)
Therefore all foreigners should be targeted with punitive measures"

There was uproar in the UK a few years ago when the head of the Met (from memory) came out with the comment that black people commit more crime, therefore are more scrutinised. It is the same thinking process:

"All blacks are criminals
Therefore all blacks should be targeted"
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  #728  
Old 30.11.2010, 11:42
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Mowvich, how do you come to such conclusion about what the Swiss are thinking? Just about everybody has reached the conclusion it will not be automatic deportation.
http://www.20min.ch/news/ostschweiz/...ative-23975621

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Dass dies kein Widerspruch ist, zeigt die Erst-Analyse des Forschungsinstitut GFS. Die Zustimmung für die Initiative war demnach auf dem Land viel stärker als in den Städten, wo der Anteil krimineller Ausländer grösser ist. Der Grund: Auf dem Land wollten die Menschen die Vorrechte der Schweizer gegenüber den Ausländern verstärkt bewahren.
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Im Restaurant Krone im Dorfzentrum von Pfyn bestätigt dies ein Gast: «Hier an der Grenze gibt es mehr Ausländer. Die nehmen uns die Arbeit weg.» Auch wenn in Pfyn selber keine Probleme bestehen, «liest man doch sehr oft von kriminellen Ausländern in den Medien», hiess es zudem am Stammtisch in einer Dorfbeiz.

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/31043369

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Heiterkeit bei der SVP

Mit Heiterkeit reagiert man bei der SVP. Generalsekretär Martin Baltisser attestiert Secondos plus eine «kuriose, verquere Optik». Und Nationalrat Ulrich Schlüer verweist auf ein Gegenmittel, das die Partei jederzeit aus der Schublade ziehen könnte: «Wenn plötzlich alle Ausländer Schweizer werden wollen, lancieren wir die Einbürgerung auf Probe.»
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  #729  
Old 30.11.2010, 12:02
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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My inner self tells me SVP/UDC/PPS is just doing the preparation work for the next elections. They don't care that much about foreigners, they just want to get the controle of the federa council by being strong enough in parliament to get three seats one day, Widmer-Schlumpf being ejected by then. They go for power as such, not for anything in particular within politics.
I agree completely.

However, SVP are just a bit more transparent in that respect. All of the major parties just want to win as many seats as possible. If you're a principled politician and don't want to do dirty tricks then you can't rise up to that level. I know several people who are in politics in different parties ranging from the FDP to the greens. They are all very decent people and I am sure they believe every word they say and want to do the best job. But they are all politicians on the councils of small towns, and they have been for a long time. They're never going to rise beyond that. To rise to a national level you have to use your elbows and compromise your principles. So as a voter, if you're a cynic you know they're all crooks but you vote for the crook whose game you know rather than the one whose game you don't. Maybe this is part of the recipe of SVp's success, as indeed it is with Berlusconi.
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  #730  
Old 30.11.2010, 12:04
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Indeed it does.

The SVP line of logic:
"All foreigners are criminals (named Ivan)
Therefore all foreigners should be targeted with punitive measures"



That's some exagerration. I think you are missing quite a lot of context in that. I'm a foreigner and voted for the Gegenvorschlag. But let's just say that perception is largely subjective.
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  #731  
Old 30.11.2010, 12:09
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Indeed it does.

The SVP line of logic:
"All foreigners are criminals (named Ivan)
Therefore all foreigners should be targeted with punitive measures"

There was uproar in the UK a few years ago when the head of the Met (from memory) came out with the comment that black people commit more crime, therefore are more scrutinised. It is the same thinking process:

"All blacks are criminals
Therefore all blacks should be targeted"
Congratulations. You use the same manipulative arguments and exaggerated statements as the SVP. If you both were of the same opinion, what a great team you'd make.
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  #732  
Old 30.11.2010, 12:11
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Congratulations. You use the same manipulative arguments and exaggerated statements as the SVP. If you both were of the same opinion, what a great team you'd make.
That was my point... if you know that they are manipulative arguments and exaggerated statements, then you know that they are not true. Therefore how can you trust what the party is putting forward as anything other than an attention-grabbing, vote-trawling move by a particular party?

You've basically bought into the lie that this will benefit you in anyway and that this will make CH "safer" as all those nasty nasty foreign criminals won't come here/will be removed from the country, at the expense of equal/fair/unbiased justice.

Way to go!

@Phos - I would have voted for the alternate as well (as stated earlier in the thread). TBH I don't think it is an exaggeration. If the SVP thought they could get away with it, I do believe they would stop all economic immigration to the country, but even they have to admit that CH wouldn't work without foreigners.
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Old 30.11.2010, 12:14
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Congratulations. You use the same manipulative arguments and exaggerated statements as the SVP. If you both were of the same opinion, what a great team you'd make.
You fail to see the discrimination in the proposal. The example is just meant to try and bring it to the foreground.

Justice should be blind - all should be equal before the law.
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  #734  
Old 30.11.2010, 12:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I'm a voter. For me it clearly was about preventing crime. If we could kick out the Swiss who commit serious crimes as well, I'd be all for it. Unfortunately, Australia isn't too keen on taking our criminals anymore and many might find sending them to the Antartica is against human rights.

I agree about longer sentences for serious crimes.

I have faith that each criminal will be judged individually and no one will be expelled if they have no home country to go to.
It seems your vote went to the wrong side.
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  #735  
Old 30.11.2010, 12:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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We're are one part of the equation so our input is definitely valid if not essential.
If you are neither Swiss nor a foreign criminal, then you are not part of the equation...
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  #736  
Old 30.11.2010, 12:21
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If you are neither Swiss nor a foreign criminal, then you are not part of the equation...
I'm here for justice after all, it should be equally applied with no discriminative measures.....regardless of being foreigner or Swiss, we are equal human beings FFS,

SVP is brainwashing the population and injecting poisonous information and feelings within the citizens, consequences won't be in favor of Switzerland at the end and everyone knows it, the only beneficiary here is SVP and when it's all screwed up, they will just stay there smiling and drinking their champaign for taking over the country and government and deporting all the foreigners.

That's how it all started with the Nazis "for the sake of the population", then it turned to be "Let's take over everything"

Some Quotes
  • "All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach." Done by SVP
  • "By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise." Done by SVP
  • "Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice. " Done by SVP
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Old 30.11.2010, 12:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If you are neither Swiss nor a foreign criminal, then you are not part of the equation...
More terms will be added to the equation as time passes. Most likely a few variables will become constants.
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  #738  
Old 30.11.2010, 13:16
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Sorry love, this is simply rubbish. The crimes proposed for deportation are serious and/or repeated and do NOT stealing apples or speeding. You can be assured when the law is drawn up it will be black & white and include only very serious crimes...
So you mean that Swiss people voted for an initiative that has not been fully defined...- GO DIRECT DEMOCRACY!

PS. Also SVP said that their "Deliktkatalog" is NOT complete...what *beeping* joke they are!

Last edited by OSueco; 30.11.2010 at 13:37.
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  #739  
Old 30.11.2010, 13:26
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I'm here for justice after all, it should be equally applied with no discriminative measures.....regardless of being foreigner or Swiss, we are equal human beings FFS,
Wow! Human rights violations in Switzerland? You know, there are other places in the world where they have serious violations of human rights. Come on now. I think you are just pissed.



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SVP is brainwashing the population and injecting poisonous information and feelings within the citizens, consequences won't be in favor of Switzerland at the end and everyone knows it, the only beneficiary here is SVP and when it's all screwed up, they will just stay there smiling and drinking their champaign for taking over the country and government and deporting all the foreigners.
Okay, to be perfectly frank, the SVP did not inject those ideas in people's heads. They were already there. It's just that nobody else was listening.
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Old 30.11.2010, 13:29
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You know, there are other places in the world where they have serious violations of human rights violations.
Yeah, but I bet they don't have those scary posters!

Given the choice between electrodes on the genitals and a poster of some scary sheep, I'm not sure which I'd choose...

I think I'll just go and hide in my cellar for a bit.
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