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  #781  
Old 30.11.2010, 18:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No. The point you were making was that xenophobic sentiment might exist in other countries even if there were no posters or political campaigns against them. I'm saying that doesn't really matter.
Well, sure. How much it matters I would guess is an individual perception to some extent. Personally, I'd rather live in Switzerland with those posters than in Japan without the posters. I sense much more xenophobia down here in Buenos Aires against certain nationalities than I did in Switzerland and there are no posters. I mean the posters doesn't make everyone xenophobic or racist and lack of posters doesn't mean it doesn't exist IYKWIM.

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I'm not saying the law is racist. I'm trying to draw a comparison between racial discrimination and the discrimination present in this proposal, to tease out the differences and see whether what kind of discrimination (if any) can be justified. I'm not saying they are the same.
To see if there is discrimination I would guess we would have to see how the law is applied.

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BTW - I do think that matters of voting, residence rights etc are naturally different for natives and foreigners. It's still wrong that the criminal law should be applied differently though.
I don't think the criminal penalty should be different. CH & foreigner both get 10 years (or whatever) in prison and this should always be the same. The problem is that once the foreigner commits a criminal act he is in breach of immigration law. This can never be the same for a citizen and a foreigner, right? Immigration law doesn't apply to citizens. Anyway, that's how I see it.

Maybe I'm being naive. It's certainly possible.
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  #782  
Old 30.11.2010, 19:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I totally agree, but if you read through the last 5 pages of the thread, you'll know my point which is there's much attitude towards foreigners in Switzerland at the moment, you can read the interview posted and my comments here What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I believe that the government should have considered a survey not vote from foreigners too, to measure their reaction as they represent 22% of the population (1’714’004 in 2009).

Swiss Population publication November 2010: French - German
I see your point again, but it is standard practice around the world to only let citizens vote in an election. I don't see anything flawed with that and the alternative would certainly not be beneficial.

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Welfare fraud is included in the proposal though. Is that worse than speeding? I know which causes more death and injury . . .
You would be surprised how much fraud directly abuses the elderly and those in need. I'm not saying that driving 300 km/h is safe by any stretch of the imagination, but welfare fraud (a growing problem around the world) is definitely a good thing to target. This actually helps those not committing fraud because it eliminated those individuals in society which run them out of business by defrauding the public.
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  #783  
Old 30.11.2010, 19:39
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I sense much more xenophobia down here in Buenos Aires against certain nationalities than I did in Switzerland and there are no posters. I mean the posters doesn't make everyone xenophobic or racist and lack of posters doesn't mean it doesn't exist IYKWIM.
Two wrongs don't make a right. It's no good pointing at another country and saying it's worse there. Let's try and get it right here.

The problem with the posters and indeed the referendum proposal itself (which was in essence and enormous publicity campaign for the SVP) is that they gradually increase anti-foreigner sentiment in the country. These are not positive images of foreigners that are being put forward. Instead we have foreigners associated with criminality or with the minaret campaign a certain type of foreigner being depicted as a dangerous other. You really have to look at the bigger picture and what the gradually developing environment is.
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  #784  
Old 30.11.2010, 19:40
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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This actually helps those not committing fraud because it eliminated those individuals
See . . . I don't want to 'eliminate' anyone. I'd like us to work out how we can all make a positive contribution.
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  #785  
Old 30.11.2010, 19:47
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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See . . . I don't want to 'eliminate' anyone. I'd like us to work out how we can all make a positive contribution.

Work towards crime prevention.
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  #786  
Old 30.11.2010, 20:16
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Two wrongs don't make a right. It's no good pointing at another country and saying it's worse there. Let's try and get it right here.

The problem with the posters and indeed the referendum proposal itself (which was in essence and enormous publicity campaign for the SVP) is that they gradually increase anti-foreigner sentiment in the country. These are not positive images of foreigners that are being put forward. Instead we have foreigners associated with criminality or with the minaret campaign a certain type of foreigner being depicted as a dangerous other. You really have to look at the bigger picture and what the gradually developing environment is.
Ok. We are going in circles here. I'm going elsewhere. We can talk about food.... nom, nom, nom....
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  #787  
Old 30.11.2010, 20:19
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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According to the Bundesamt für Statistik, of 1.68 million foreigners in Switzerland, 354 000 were born in Switzerland.
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/e...key/01/03.html

Edit: so roughly 21%
Edit II: based on those with residents permits with duration of at least 12 months
Thank you - that is great to see real numbers.

So about 60% of the "foreigners" come from EU/EFTA countries - no wonder the EU are taking an interest in this topic.
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  #788  
Old 30.11.2010, 20:45
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The SVP doesn't want the state to own anything and is all in favour of big corporations being allowed to do their thing. Also, the SVP would like to see the state and its power reduced to a minimum with free market forces running the rest. They are thus economically speaking much more liberal.
Bollo****!

You mean the SVP stands for reducing farming subsidies, reducing the (stupid) militia military, reducing the police force, reducing the number of prohibitive laws?

After all the SVP is the party of "verboten". You need quite a big state to ensure all that.


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Also, Nazis cut back democracy and built a dictatorship. If the SVP wants directly elected Bundesräte, that sounds like more democracy to me, not less.
Errrr... warming up quite old SP-Ideas makes them the super democrats?

If they really want to walk the walk, they could even copy the text proposed by the SP in 1939. After all, the text of the Ausschaffungsinitiative shows pretty well that they have their troubles when it comes to formulate coherent texts.

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Today the opponents of the SVP are saying that courts (whose judges of course are appointed by the ruling parties) and international agreements such as Human Rights (which are not anchored in proper democratic processes) should be able to overrule democratic decisons and that the people cannot be trusted to elect their own government.
Such as the SVP? And yes, there are limits.

As a matter of fact, the SP-Initiative was rejected: Ta-dah, by the people!
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  #789  
Old 30.11.2010, 21:57
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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So about 60% of the "foreigners" come from EU/EFTA countries - no wonder the EU are taking an interest in this topic.
Then again you could ask how many of them are criminal. If I remember correctly, then for example German immigrants are less criminal than Swiss citizens.
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  #790  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:03
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Ok. We are going in circles here. I'm going elsewhere. We can talk about food.... nom, nom, nom....
No, I'm on a diet again. Until a week before Crimbo. Hey, at least that way I will lose some weight before putting it back on and be able to start the new year's resolutions with less to do.

Back on topic, although I don't think there is a single aspect we haven't discussed yet. Or have we already done "IF there is genuinely a problem with more crime among non-Swiss, then what would YOUR solution be to bring this down in a cost-effective and long-lasting manner"?
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  #791  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:12
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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So nothing. I said foreigner by definition are discriminated again, Berlin said but they (other countries) don't have racist campaigns & I said that doesn't mean people aren't racist other places. That's it. Nothing else.

I've already said I don't like the campaign. That doesn't mean that I can't understand the law. And I don't find the law racist. Criminal is not a race.
Case A
John is born here his parents are not swiss citizens, John's gets a swiss passport at 20. John sells a joint, John goes to jail in Switzerland...

Case B
Goran is born here, his parents are not swiss citizens, Goran don't get a swiss passport due to a minor traffic violation. Goran sells a joint, Goran gets deported...

Can someone tell me what is wrong with this picture?
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  #792  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:14
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Can someone tell me what is wrong with this picture?
You shouldn't be selling joints.
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  #793  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:24
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You shouldn't be selling joints.
Deportation is a disproportionate punishment for selling something, the consumption of which is virtually tolerated.
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  #794  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:26
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No, I'm on a diet again. Until a week before Crimbo. Hey, at least that way I will lose some weight before putting it back on and be able to start the new year's resolutions with less to do.

Back on topic, although I don't think there is a single aspect we haven't discussed yet. Or have we already done "IF there is genuinely a problem with more crime among non-Swiss, then what would YOUR solution be to bring this down in a cost-effective and long-lasting manner"?
There is no such thing as a simple solution to crime. Crime is a societal problem with many causes, as it is often the case here in the place called reality.

Do you really think that there is a one size fits all solution for a problem that concerns people with very different backgrounds in very different situations.

For example: Helping young people with south-eastern European backgrounds feeling less alienated, find jobs (so that they can prove themselves there and don't need street cred) might work wonders. But that does not apply to "criminal-tourists" who come here specifically to commit crimes (with the latter group accounting for a very big part of crimes committed by foreign nationals).
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  #795  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:30
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Case A
John is born here his parents are not swiss citizens, John's gets a swiss passport at 20. John sells a joint, John goes to jail in Switzerland...

Case B
Goran is born here, his parents are not swiss citizens, Goran don't get a swiss passport due to a minor traffic violation. Goran sells a joint, Goran gets deported...

Can someone tell me what is wrong with this picture?
Much!

I seriously doubt that Goran will be deported though. Even Adrian "Richard-Gere-für-Arme" Amstutz admitted that maybe the law will not be that though. And if it is that though at the end, there will be a referendum. After all it is the parliament that decides. And not the SVP alone.
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Old 30.11.2010, 22:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Case A
John is born here his parents are not swiss citizens, John's gets a swiss passport at 20. John sells a joint, John goes to jail in Switzerland...

Case B
Goran is born here, his parents are not swiss citizens, Goran don't get a swiss passport due to a minor traffic violation. Goran sells a joint, Goran gets deported...

Can someone tell me what is wrong with this picture?
Yep Goran goes to jail as well before getting deported
but seriously I'm gonna wait until we say what the law exactly is rather than thinking about all kinds of scenario. I give you strictly speaking that's what should happen but we'll see how tough the law will be
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Old 30.11.2010, 22:32
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Next initiative, UDC wants less foreigner students

http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/suisse/s...ngers-22376047

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The UDC group of federal parliament has decided to file an urgent inquiry on this issue, "he said Tuesday evening.

The UDC group reports that the number of foreign students has doubled between 2000 and 2009. He recalled that Switzerland does not impose special requirements for foreign students with a bachelor enrolling in master.

For the UDC, should consider the introduction of examinations or quota for this category of students. The party believes it is important to maintain the quality of Swiss universities.
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  #798  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:35
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Next initiative, UDC wants less foreigner students

http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/suisse/s...ngers-22376047
Happening in the UK too.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/no...ed-immigration
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  #799  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:37
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Next initiative, UDC wants less foreigner students
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UDC: should consider the introduction of examinations or quota for this category of [foreign] students. The party believes it is important to maintain the quality of Swiss universities.
Several articles in Swissinfo have alluded to the fact that foreign students enhance the R & D capabilities of the Swiss Unis.
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Old 30.11.2010, 22:38
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Deportation is a disproportionate punishment for selling something, the consumption of which is virtually tolerated.
I answered "simplistic-style" on purpose. To me, all this is still only a problem for those who commit crime. I don't care beyond that point, really. Everything else is a purely academic discussion about what people think others are allowed to think or do, based on a very idealised notion of the world.

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Do you really think that there is a one size fits all solution for a problem that concerns people with very different backgrounds in very different situations.

For example: Helping young people with south-eastern European backgrounds feeling less alienated, find jobs (so that they can prove themselves there and don't need street cred) might work wonders. But that does not apply to "criminal-tourists" who come here specifically to commit crimes (with the latter group accounting for a very big part of crimes committed by foreign nationals).
Of course there is no simple solution. But I also feel that there is no excuse for bad behaviour.
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