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  #801  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:39
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Several articles in Swissinfo have alluded to the fact that foreign students enhance the R & D capabilities of the Swiss Unis.
I don't think UDC agrees on this
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  #802  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:42
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Maybe it's not the actual kicking out that is fundamental here but the fear of being kicked out that may be be dissuading those foreigners who may be contemplating criminality as an easy road to getting rich quickly in a country that they may perceive as being soft.
A) The deportation comes AFTER having served the prison sentence in question. The prison terms may be lesser by average than in Germany for example, but
first the possible deterrent is a heavy prison sentence as such
second few criminals expect to get caught
third few criminals really plan to get criminal long term
B) "soft" is relative. What matters and is to have full priority is to catch the fish and bring the culprits to court. And in this, the crime squads in Zurich and in Basel for example are among the most successful in Europe
B-b) whether the verdict is 3 or 4,5 years does not make so much of a difference, what matters, to say it again, is that the culprits are caught and their deeds proven
B-c) the deportation as such for a "seasoned" criminal may not be a too high technical problem, but is for sure a harsh humiliation, and may show some of their colleagues (not guilty or not caught) the risk of the criminal activities
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  #803  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:42
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Switzerland is looking for 32'000 IT engineers...150 graduates every year from ETH Zürich...can any of the SVP-fan-boys here tell me what's the SVP solution for this?

Don't give me that crap about it's so easy to replace foreign labour...at my work we have 10 positions opened for qualified personnel...can't even find them outside of Switzerland...
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  #804  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:42
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Of course there is no simple solution. But I also feel that there is no excuse for bad behaviour.
So muslims and their minarets are bad, foreigner criminals are bad, what about the foreign students now?, it's not even 3 days and they strike again against foreigners, can someone explain this??
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  #805  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:43
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You shouldn't be selling joints.
replace joint with e.g. car theft or cheating the IV of 200CHF...
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  #806  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:44
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Well, the universities really are bursting out of their seams and since Swiss students pay much higher fees when they study abroad AND have to pass any entry exams, I reckon Swiss universities should do the same for foreign students coming here.
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  #807  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:45
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

While many agree that overseas students help boost diversity and quality....

Interesting Swissinfo article
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  #808  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:48
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Switzerland is looking for 32'000 IT engineers...150 graduates every year from ETH Zürich...can any of the SVP-fan-boys here tell me what's the SVP solution for this?

Don't give me that crap about it's so easy to replace foreign labour...at my work we 10 positions open for qualified personnel...can't even find them outside of Switzerland...
The plan is getting more and more clear:
  1. Initiative to deport foreigner criminals
  2. Amending it over the next 5 years with minor infrigments or combined ones (to make it easier to get much foreigners out even for traffic tickets)
  3. Kick foreign students out
  4. Push Swiss students in demanding fields ie. IT, Software programming which relies mainly on foreigners
  5. When they have enough calibers, fire the rest of the foreigners and replace them with the new Swiss generation.
  6. Voila, Switzerland for the Swiss people
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  #809  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:49
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I answered "simplistic-style" on purpose. To me, all this is still only a problem for those who commit crime. I don't care beyond that point, really. Everything else is a purely academic discussion about what people think others are allowed to think or do, based on a very idealised notion of the world.
It's rather black and white, unrealistic or in some senses idealistic to have no sense of proportion between a crime and the punishment for it. It's far from academic . . . these disproportionate consequences will affect real people and their families.

Of course the notion of proportionate punishment is not merely academic or idealistic. It's an idea which forms the basis of nearly all actual systems of criminal justice.
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  #810  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:49
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Next initiative, UDC wants less foreigner students

http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/suisse/s...ngers-22376047

That is an "interpellation urgente", an urgent question asked by members of the parliament. Pretty standard procedure. Not an initiative, very far from it.

Seriously, as much as I disagree with the result of the last vote: The SVP will not get through everything they purpose. They have lost quite a few votations (UN, naturalization by vote, Schengen-Dublin etc.) and they cannot push through laws on their own.


As per limiting the access of foreign students: The thing is that in Switzerland (and in Austria) having a Bac. basically gives you the right to study whatever subject at whatever U. you want at the bachelor level (with the exception of medicine).

In Germany however, access is limited (based on the grades you got). So there are quite many German students that go and study in Switzerland or Austria because they were not good enough to qualify in Germany.

Basically, what some purpose is to put in place admission exams, so as to get the good foreign students, and not the left-overs (IMHO the grades in the bac are only part of the story, so I partially disagree with that).

The SVP is just parroting these propositions to score some cheap points.
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  #811  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:51
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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We're are one part of the equation so our input is definitely valid if not essential.

Swiss have the right to decide whatever with their own country and laws, but when it comes to amending the constitution against certain race, religion or social class (at least not for the right reasons as it seems), i find this really discriminative.
While the SVP campaign was reminding of methods in use 80 / 90 years ago in Germany and was ugly and while the new law IS harsh, it is NOT against either a race, a religion or a social class. So that it is quite different from the Minaret Initiative which was anti-Muslim as it only affects Muslim buildings and is not based on neutral criteria.
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  #812  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:53
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The SVP is just parroting these propositions to score some cheap points.
I don't think it's cheap points, this is a planned strategy
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  #813  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:55
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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While the SVP campaign was reminding of methods in use 80 / 90 years ago in Germany and was ugly and while the new law IS harsh, it is NOT against either a race, a religion or a social class. So that it is quite different from the Minaret Initiative which was anti-Muslim as it only affects Muslim buildings and is not based on neutral criteria.
The hidden agenda is betrayed by both the poster campaign (Ivan, Detlef etc) and also the inclusion of welfare fraud on the proposal, which will disproportionately affect certain ethnic groups.
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  #814  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:55
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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While the SVP campaign was reminding of methods in use 80 / 90 years ago in Germany and was ugly and while the new law IS harsh, it is NOT against either a race, a religion or a social class. So that it is quite different from the Minaret Initiative which was anti-Muslim as it only affects Muslim buildings and is not based on neutral criteria.
But don't you see that they keep repeating and promoting the same principal again and again, foreign criminals, foreign students, foreign this and foreign that, the average Swiss joe now knows the only problem in Switzerland is any thing foreigner
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  #815  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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So you mean that Swiss people voted for an initiative that has not been fully defined...- GO DIRECT DEMOCRACY!

PS. Also SVP said that their "Deliktkatalog" is NOT complete...what *beeping* joke they are!
Let's be realistic, the exact definitions will fill pages. And so would have been too much for an initiative. And complicated looking initiatives usually get rejected.
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Old 30.11.2010, 22:57
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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See . . . I don't want to 'eliminate' anyone. I'd like us to work out how we can all make a positive contribution.
I fail to see any system in the world that doesn't have a method of punishment for crimes. Yes, I too would like to talk to criminals and defrauders and ask them to stop doing what they're doing, however that isn't quite effective.

Again, I don't see the point of sending a non-citizen to jail for 5-10-15 years and spending money which should be reserved for citizens(criminals or not).
As a citizen of a nation, you are entitled to certain rights. I think it's fair to say that a citizen that commits a crime should be jailed within the nation. Those who are not citizens should not be entitled to all the same rights. And before anyone jumps on my case, no nation in the world provides all the same rights to citizens and non-citizens.
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  #817  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:57
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Of course the notion of proportionate punishment is not merely academic or idealistic. It's an idea which forms the basis of nearly all actual systems of criminal justice.
Well, I've given up on states handing out proportionate punishments, I've seen cases where someone who abused children got less time than someone who evaded taxes. Or if you look at the amount of energy that Germany and the US focus on the whole tax evasion issue, I really wonder whether they have their priorities right. My, admittedly, black and white, view is that there is no excuse to commit a crime, other than literally stealing food because you have nothing to eat or harming someone because you have to defend yourself. Which will bring on a whole new discussion about what a crime is, I know... *sighs*

Maybe a system where your first offence lands you with a formal warning and your second results in immediate expulsion to a jail in your home country, without a jail sentence here first would be more acceptable? Or is that still not fluffy enough?
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  #818  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:59
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Let's be realistic, the exact definitions will fill pages. And so would have been too much for an initiative. And complicated looking initiatives usually get rejected.
So now we have approved initiative with no basis nor solid ground.....approved in principal and modified as per UDC's needs later, is that what you saying??
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  #819  
Old 30.11.2010, 22:59
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Case A
John is born here his parents are not swiss citizens, John's gets a swiss passport at 20. John sells a joint, John goes to jail in Switzerland...

Case B
Goran is born here, his parents are not swiss citizens, Goran don't get a swiss passport due to a minor traffic violation. Goran sells a joint, Goran gets deported...

Can someone tell me what is wrong with this picture?
my point being, both are born here and are not just a product of their family heritage but also a product of the Swiss society...

I know that SVP makes you believe that foreigners from eastern and south eastern are born with the thieving and violent gene, but there are scientific proves that our behaviors are heavily influenced by and during the circumstances which we are brought up by (e.g. education, localization, discrimination (!!!) etc.)

My concerns is not that much about people coming here and commit crimes...but rather with people which are born and raised here in Switzerland...that's why this initiative is totally "wrong", it does not consider your history, which once again all other countries in Europe do and NO I don't tare if there are harsher laws in Mozambique...

Somehow I would blame myself if my son would turn out as a criminal, after all, I went here, and he's born here - a land which he's not a part of, have no roots, have no cultural bounds with etc. I can imagine that 2nd and 3rd generation have a very hard time finding their place here, and also how easy it might be to go in the wrong direction...

Here is where Switzerland has to take its responsibility more, identify future "problem makers" in an early stage (see school) to PREVENT future criminal offenses...
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  #820  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:02
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

To Be fair as much as we hate the svp.they are very clever.they've found a topic which is very emotional änd have been campaigning on this for years.the best part is as it only directly hits foreigners who can't vote, the svp don't take the risk that a svp policy negatively affects their voters.the other parties need to up their game though.the sp has rich people as their common target but the voters are afraid of acting against them incase the rich move out änd we have to pick up the tax bill.off the cuff I can't think of any constructive proposals in the recent past from the cvp,fdp or bdp.all parties need to stop only reacting to svp proposals and start being constructive.otherwise it looks like only the svp can have new ideas.
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