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  #821  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:03
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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But don't you see that they keep repeating and promoting the same principal again and again, foreign criminals, foreign students, foreign this and foreign that, the average Swiss joe now knows the only problem in Switzerland is any thing foreigner
The "average Swiss joe" as you put it doesn't just go along with everything the SVP bang on about. They do have brains and can think for themselves. As was said above SVP have lost quite a few of their proposals.
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  #822  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:05
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I don't think it's cheap points, this is a planned strategy
There is a strategy, of course. But it's still scoring cheap points as this is sth. that is already discussed by other people. SVP just wanted to get their name in.

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So now we have approved initiative with no basis nor solid ground.....approved in principal and modified as per our needs later, is that what you saying??
Yes. That's exactly it. That is the way it works. That is also a reason why some of the people voted yes (not that hardcore ones), as they knew that the parliament will have a say later. And then there is always the possibility of a referendum.

As the saying goes "das wird nicht so heiss gegessen wie's gekocht wurde". (This will not be eaten as hot as it has been cooked).
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  #823  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:07
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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More terms will be added to the equation as time passes. Most likely a few variables will become constants.
Nobody can "add more terms" simply like that. Somebody can launch an initiative with more terms, but risking to lose. Or such notions can be pushed through parliament and might in the end land up in a public vote. Such "terms" even got deleted in the end very often. It may take a long time like the prohibition of the Absynthe (8 decades) or a shorter time like the NO for the votiing rights for women or membership of the U.N. . Add to this the authority of the Cantons in practical life including the practical work of the judiciary and then you get the point.

I admit, that it is strange that you for something you can do freely in Zürich, you will get into prison if doing the same in Lachen. But that is life here.
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  #824  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:08
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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There is a strategy, of course. But it's still scoring cheap points as this is sth. that is already discussed by other people. SVP just wanted to get their name in.
I don't agree on that, there's so many way to get their name up and so many cheap points means winning the game and the game here is played on foreigners, so lets not go around in circles and just hit the direct point.....target is very clear, they have strategy, plan and target here and it's all against foreigners.
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  #825  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:09
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Well, I've given up on states handing out proportionate punishments, I've seen cases where someone who abused children got less time than someone who evaded taxes. Or if you look at the amount of energy that Germany and the US focus on the whole tax evasion issue, I really wonder whether they have their priorities right. My, admittedly, black and white, view is that there is no excuse to commit a crime, other than literally stealing food because you have nothing to eat or harming someone because you have to defend yourself. Which will bring on a whole new discussion about what a crime is, I know... *sighs*

Maybe a system where your first offence lands you with a formal warning and your second results in immediate expulsion to a jail in your home country, without a jail sentence here first would be more acceptable? Or is that still not fluffy enough?
Just because in some countries the proportionality is askew, that's no reason to give up on the principle. No one's asking that there should be an excuse for crime, merely that there should for example, be harsher punishment for murder than welfare fraud. The disproportionality is the possibility of expulsion for relatively minor offences, with no right of appeal.

I would like to see expulsion limited to violent crime.
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  #826  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:10
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yeah, but I bet they don't have those scary posters!

Given the choice between electrodes on the genitals and a poster of some scary sheep, I'm not sure which I'd choose...

I think I'll just go and hide in my cellar for a bit.
Just revise your negative attitude and start to perceive the "scary sheep posters" as valuable objets d'art
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  #827  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:13
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Nobody can "add more terms" simply like that. Somebody can launch an initiative with more terms, but risking to lose. Or such notions can be pushed through parliament and might in the end land up in a public vote. Such "terms" even got deleted in the end very often. It may take a long time like the prohibition of the Absynthe (8 decades) or a shorter time like the NO for the votiing rights for women or membership of the U.N. . Add to this the authority of the Cantons in practical life including the practical work of the judiciary and then you get the point.

I admit, that it is strange that you for something you can do freely in Zürich, you will get into prison if doing the same in Lachen. But that is life here.
If i were a UDC members who's responsible about this initiative, i would be able to pull up so many simple infringements that has not been directly approved in this initiative and make it valid without even being refused or even deleted, and this is one thing that i know they will introduce sooner or later.
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  #828  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If i were a UDC members who's responsible about this initiative, i would be able to pull up so many simple infringements that has not been directly approved in this initiative and make it valid without even being refused or even deleted, and this is one thing that i know they will introduce sooner or later.

Nope, they cant. It's the parliament that decides. The SVP has 58 seats out of 200 in the national council and 6 out of 42 in the council of states. To pass a law you need the majority in both chambers.
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  #829  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Just because in some countries the proportionality is askew, that's no reason to give up on the principle. No one's asking that there should be an excuse for crime, merely that there should for example, be harsher punishment for murder than welfare fraud. The disproportionality is the possibility of expulsion for relatively minor offences, with no right of appeal.

I would like to see expulsion limited to violent crime.
From murder and rape to welfare fraud, there's lots of other crime in between ie. traffic infringements, tax evasion, street fights, drug usage,.....etc, they're less than murder but more than welfare fraud, so all of these can be logically approved too, no!!
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  #830  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:23
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I see this thread is still going strong. Glad to see no one has been convicted and deported yet. (Bit of good night humour)
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  #831  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:26
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I see this thread is still going strong. Glad to see no one has been convicted and deported yet. (Bit of good night humour)
I think i'll be the first to be deported, every single SVP initiative relates to me one way or another

Good night
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  #832  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:35
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I would like to see expulsion limited to violent crime.
But I thought what everyone was up in arms about was the "two class" society? If there is still expulsion in some cases, this problem still remains, no?
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  #833  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:43
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Also, the SVP would like to see the state and its power reduced to a minimum with free market forces running the rest. They are thus economically speaking much more liberal.
.
No, the SVP is NOT liberal. It supports the powers of the farmers' lobby, representing less than 10% of the people to be extended to a maximum. The SVP is determined to cut out the free market forces in favour of their farmers' clientele and in favour of HIGH prices for agricultural products. Even the Social-Democrats are more liberal
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  #834  
Old 30.11.2010, 23:55
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Switzerland is looking for 32'000 IT engineers...150 graduates every year from ETH Zürich...can any of the SVP-fan-boys here tell me what's the SVP solution for this?

Don't give me that crap about it's so easy to replace foreign labour...at my work we have 10 positions opened for qualified personnel...can't even find them outside of Switzerland...

While they possibly cannot, I CAN tell you what the SVP solution is for this. They simply make sure that the Federal Ministries for economies and justice, just as now, are in the hands of SP and FDP, and so it will be THEM who have to find practical solutions

And it may not be popular to say it, but your company might consider to move your office complex to Cairo or Mumbai/Bombay or to Sao Paulo or to Casablanca, and the personnel problem is solved
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  #835  
Old 01.12.2010, 00:04
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The plan is getting more and more clear:
  1. Initiative to deport foreigner criminals
  2. Amending it over the next 5 years with minor infrigments or combined ones (to make it easier to get much foreigners out even for traffic tickets)
  3. Kick foreign students out
  4. Push Swiss students in demanding fields ie. IT, Software programming which relies mainly on foreigners
  5. When they have enough calibers, fire the rest of the foreigners and replace them with the new Swiss generation.
  6. Voila, Switzerland for the Swiss people
pt 2: nobody can simply "amend" anything with minor infringements. Such amendments will need majorities in both house of the parliament, and possibly even the people. Such majorities will be difficult to get
pt 3: you cannot simply "kick foreign students out" as there is no legal basis for this
pt 4: Swiss students already ARE in such "demanding fields". But the "Baby-Boomers" are in these years and the next 10 to 15 years getting retired
pt 5: the "new Swiss generation" is far smaller in numbers than the outgoing generation. The retirees have to be replaced by "imports"
pt 6: Switzerland for the Swiss people only if enough foreigners are made CH citizens !

Sorry for ruining the joy by a few facts
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  #836  
Old 01.12.2010, 00:07
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The hidden agenda is betrayed by both the poster campaign (Ivan, Detlef etc) and also the inclusion of welfare fraud on the proposal, which will disproportionately affect certain ethnic groups.
the agenda you mean is not hidden at all but well known. But that "welfare fraud" will not look as general as it may look now after it has been reviewed and specified in parliament
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  #837  
Old 01.12.2010, 00:11
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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But don't you see that they keep repeating and promoting the same principal again and again, foreign criminals, foreign students, foreign this and foreign that, the average Swiss joe now knows the only problem in Switzerland is any thing foreigner
to repeat and repeat the same notions again and again is not new in politics. But to conclude out of this that now "the average Swiss joe" now "knows" anything is rubbish. You cannot know how particular future votes will come out.
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  #838  
Old 01.12.2010, 00:13
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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So now we have approved initiative with no basis nor solid ground.....approved in principal and modified as per UDC's needs later, is that what you saying??
No, this is NOT what I am saying, as it will be modified as per SP's, FDP's, CVP's needs later, THIS is what I am saying. It is now in parliament, and the SVP does not have a majority in either house.
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  #839  
Old 01.12.2010, 00:25
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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the other parties need to up their game though.the sp has rich people as their common target but the voters are afraid of acting against them incase the rich move out änd we have to pick up the tax bill.
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you have to see that most of the opposition to the SP initiative came from the point that the SP initiative aimed at a centralisation in favour of the powers of the union, a concept which is most unpopular even among fairly leftist voters.


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off the cuff I can't think of any constructive proposals in the recent past from the cvp,fdp or bdp.all parties need to stop only reacting to svp proposals and start being constructive.otherwise it looks like only the svp can have new ideas.
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The Schengen- and Dublin-agreements were pushed through federal votings by Mrs Micheline Calmy-Rey and her SP unbelievably successfully. Other changes initiated by the SP in fact DID pass through federal votings many many times. To say it again, over the years, the SP was far more successful than the SVP, both on Federal and on Cantonal level. The CVP which once was the powerful KKP (Catholic-Conservative Party) in the "Innerschweiz" (Central Switzerland) and in staunchly Catholic Cantons like Freiburg/Fribourg and Wallis/Valais has become a small fringe party with the old KK-wing and a social-liberal wing, but is simply unable to be creative. The BDP is a 4% party at present and so almost irrelevant except that it, until late next years, has a seat in the Federal government. The FDP, the traditional "government party" is a bit a lame party in regard to new ideas.
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  #840  
Old 01.12.2010, 00:32
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If i were a UDC members who's responsible about this initiative, i would be able to pull up so many simple infringements that has not been directly approved in this initiative and make it valid without even being refused or even deleted, and this is one thing that i know they will introduce sooner or later.
No SVP member is responsible about the initiative, but Federal Justice Minister Simonetta Sommaruga, a Social Democrat And nobody can put up "infringements" as such ideas will not get a majority and so will get turned down. And nobody can "make it valid" without finding a coalition majority, which in practice will not be possible. Nobody can simply "introduce" something, neither sooner nor later.

You see, the idea of Thomas Jefferson about "checks and balances" has been put into reality in Switzerland possibly even more strictly than in the USA.
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