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  #841  
Old 01.12.2010, 01:38
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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From murder and rape to welfare fraud, there's lots of other crime in between ie. traffic infringements, tax evasion, street fights, drug usage,.....etc, they're less than murder but more than welfare fraud, so all of these can be logically approved too, no!!
No, they cannot as they are NOT covered by the "Initiativ-Text"

in detail :
- traffic infringements are NOT covered and are NOT subject to the new law
- tax evasion is not tax fraud, but neither is covered
- drug ..... all the drug crimes will be subject to the specifications to be done in parliament. But while drug trading is a crime in all Cantons, drug usage is only a minor offence or not even that in many others. So that I do not expect drug USAGE to be included in the specified crime
- street fights ? what do you mean ? This of course also is subject to specifications, as heavily wounding somebody WILL BE covered
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  #842  
Old 01.12.2010, 01:40
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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my point being, both are born here and are not just a product of their family heritage but also a product of the Swiss society...

I know that SVP makes you believe that foreigners from eastern and south eastern are born with the thieving and violent gene, but there are scientific proves that our behaviors are heavily influenced by and during the circumstances which we are brought up by (e.g. education, localization, discrimination (!!!) etc.)

My concerns is not that much about people coming here and commit crimes...but rather with people which are born and raised here in Switzerland...that's why this initiative is totally "wrong", it does not consider your history, which once again all other countries in Europe do and NO I don't tare if there are harsher laws in Mozambique...

Somehow I would blame myself if my son would turn out as a criminal, after all, I went here, and he's born here - a land which he's not a part of, have no roots, have no cultural bounds with etc. I can imagine that 2nd and 3rd generation have a very hard time finding their place here, and also how easy it might be to go in the wrong direction...

Here is where Switzerland has to take its responsibility more, identify future "problem makers" in an early stage (see school) to PREVENT future criminal offenses...
Oh...Dear, I tried to hold my tongue (well fingers) but I had to bite on this one. Lets take this for example: You own the house you live in. You have lived in this house for many years. Your children were born in this house. If for some reason you can't pay the mortgage and have to leave, because your children were "born" in that house should they be allowed to stay there? Everyone must "leave the house". It doesn't matter if they were "born and raised in Switzerland". If they are not a citizen and commit a certain crime then they must leave. According to this new initiative.

The most influence a child has is their immediate environment "their home". We can't expect governments to raise our children too. You've got people reproducing "as we speak" birthing the new criminals of the world. Poor parenting is the cause of a lot of poorly behaved children.
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  #843  
Old 01.12.2010, 01:42
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

By the way, I have enjoyed reading a lot of the post here. A lot of good information about the Swiss system and others has been posted. Maybe this thread should get a sticky...
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  #844  
Old 01.12.2010, 01:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Oh...Dear, I tried to hold my tongue (well fingers) but I had to bite on this one. Lets take this for example: You own the house you live in. You have lived in this house for many years. Your children were born in this house. If for some reason you can't pay the mortgage and have to leave, because your children were "born" in that house should they be allowed to stay there? Everyone must "leave the house". It doesn't matter if they were "born and raised in Switzerland". If they are not a citizen and commit a certain crime then they must leave. According to this new initiative.

The most influence a child has is their immediate environment "their home". We can't expect governments to raise our children too. You've got people reproducing "as we speak" birthing the new criminals of the world. Poor parenting is the cause of a lot of poorly behaved children.
You talk about people like they are some pieces of furniture...
Are you for real?
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  #845  
Old 01.12.2010, 02:08
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You talk about people like they are some pieces of furniture...
Are you for real?
I talke about people as if "they should be responsible for their actions and who they are". And...uh...yeah...I am for real..
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  #846  
Old 01.12.2010, 02:10
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The hidden agenda is betrayed by both the poster campaign (Ivan, Detlef etc) and also the inclusion of welfare fraud on the proposal, which will disproportionately affect certain ethnic groups.

You think it's a Conspiracy?

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  #847  
Old 01.12.2010, 02:25
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Oooh, I think this initiative will be fantastic for eastern european families, especially the younger generation. It's an opportunity to turn away from a life of crime, and focus on some meaningful personal development. I mean, seriously, that American hip hop thing just does not fly with the eastern european folks. The gangsta stuff went out of fashion 10 years ago. Cool smart kids in US ghetto would not get caught dead in that style anymore.

It's a life saving/life affirming opportunity to turn away from a life of crime. Imagine that, eh? Ivan S. no longer has to go on raping, and Silvana no longer has to fear the Ivans. In 10-20 years time, they can get their diploma and do something smart and valuable for themselves.

How cool is that, eh? Switzerland, the land of Opportunity!!!

Who could have imagined?
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  #848  
Old 01.12.2010, 07:42
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Oooh, I think this initiative will be fantastic for eastern european families, especially the younger generation. It's an opportunity to turn away from a life of crime, and focus on some meaningful personal development. I mean, seriously, that American hip hop thing just does not fly with the eastern european folks. The gangsta stuff went out of fashion 10 years ago. Cool smart kids in US ghetto would not get caught dead in that style anymore.

It's a life saving/life affirming opportunity to turn away from a life of crime. Imagine that, eh? Ivan S. no longer has to go on raping, and Silvana no longer has to fear the Ivans. In 10-20 years time, they can get their diploma and do something smart and valuable for themselves.
Yeah, really!!

And by saying, you're just confirmed they are all criminals till they prove the opposite, and Switzerland / this initiative is made to put them back on track, now you see what's the point.....you just discriminated against eastern european families and their kids, well done.


Oppression causes anger and nothing is worst than feeling discriminated and living in fear, which is the case today.....just read your own post.
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  #849  
Old 01.12.2010, 07:45
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I talke about people as if "they should be responsible for their actions and who they are". And...uh...yeah...I am for real..
Responsible yes, but on their own free will, being oppressed and discriminated against is NOT the way to go.
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  #850  
Old 01.12.2010, 09:03
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yeah, really!!

And by saying, you're just confirmed they are all criminals till they prove the opposite, and Switzerland / this initiative is made to put them back on track, now you see what's the point.....you just discriminated against eastern european families and their kids, well done.


Oppression causes anger and nothing is worst than feeling discriminated and living in fear, which is the case today.....just read your own post.
No, it is NOT against East Europeans and their kids, as most of these families and their kids are NOT involved in heavy crimes. Even "high crime rates" mean figures of far less than one percent.
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  #851  
Old 01.12.2010, 10:30
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Well, the universities really are bursting out of their seams and since Swiss students pay much higher fees when they study abroad AND have to pass any entry exams, I reckon Swiss universities should do the same for foreign students coming here.

FYI Swiss can study for free in my home country
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  #852  
Old 01.12.2010, 10:41
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yeah, really!!

And by saying, you're just confirmed they are all criminals till they prove the opposite, and Switzerland / this initiative is made to put them back on track, now you see what's the point.....you just discriminated against eastern european families and their kids, well done.


Oppression causes anger and nothing is worst than feeling discriminated and living in fear, which is the case today.....just read your own post.
You don't get irony do you? Lighten up...
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  #853  
Old 01.12.2010, 11:02
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Oooh, I think this initiative will be fantastic for eastern european families, especially the younger generation. It's an opportunity to turn away from a life of crime, and focus on some meaningful personal development. I mean, seriously, that American hip hop thing just does not fly with the eastern european folks. The gangsta stuff went out of fashion 10 years ago. Cool smart kids in US ghetto would not get caught dead in that style anymore.

It's a life saving/life affirming opportunity to turn away from a life of crime. Imagine that, eh? Ivan S. no longer has to go on raping, and Silvana no longer has to fear the Ivans. In 10-20 years time, they can get their diploma and do something smart and valuable for themselves.

How cool is that, eh? Switzerland, the land of Opportunity!!!

Who could have imagined?

How many Eastern European folks do you really know? What makes you think so? Most of the people from East of Europe are really hard working and accept jobs few people would do, working bellow their education and qualifications. They usually have to be 5 times better than a local just to be given a chance!
Besides, East Europe it's not a country, there's so much diversity and so many cultures in it. After 50 years of isolation from the rest of the world we have our difficulties and we still struggle, but in 20 years there will be no significant difference between East and West of Europe.
I don't care what you think, you are wrong, there's much more confidence and ambition, desire to improve and grow in Eastern Europeans than in people who take everything for granted. We don't have that sense of entitlement other folks have.
I'm sorry to dissapoint you, but I'm pretty confident in this part of the world. It's not easy, too much freedom all of a sudden after 50 years of oppresion might have confuzed a few, but the vast majority is doing pretty well at the moment.
I understand now very well what kind of persons were in favor of SVP's initiative. Hope many people will also have a clear picture and would not want to associate in the future with this type of people.
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  #854  
Old 01.12.2010, 11:35
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Responsible yes, but on their own free will, being oppressed and discriminated against is NOT the way to go.
This attitude is a "loser" attitude. You always have free will. You make choices each and every day. The world isn't perfect and you're not going to make it perfect either. If a person walks around with a "woe is me" attitude then you're not going to get very far. Its all subjective you have people who have a little but with a lot of happiness. You have those who have a lot and are miserable. The glass is half-empty or half-full you make the choice. Humanity is on the march. If you are not in step you will be left behind. PC is just about done, and countries are tired of being used my scrupulous characters. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the many have to suffer for the few. If you are not a criminal you have nothing to be concerned about. If you are so deeply greived about this outcome in Switzerland then you may have to pack your bags...sorry..you are free to do this, you see no one is oppressing you. You are free don't forget that!
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  #855  
Old 01.12.2010, 11:40
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

(violin soundtrack)

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How many Eastern European folks do you really know? What makes you think so? Most of the people from East of Europe are really hard working and accept jobs few people would do, working bellow their education and qualifications. They usually have to be 5 times better than a local just to be given a chance!
Besides, East Europe it's not a country, there's so much diversity and so many cultures in it. After 50 years of isolation from the rest of the world we have our difficulties and we still struggle, but in 20 years there will be no significant difference between East and West of Europe.
I don't care what you think, you are wrong, there's much more confidence and ambition, desire to improve and grow in Eastern Europeans than in people who take everything for granted. We don't have that sense of entitlement other folks have.
I'm sorry to dissapoint you, but I'm pretty confident in this part of the world. It's not easy, too much freedom all of a sudden after 50 years of oppresion might have confuzed a few, but the vast majority is doing pretty well at the moment.
I understand now very well what kind of persons were in favor of SVP's initiative. Hope many people will also have a clear picture and would not want to associate in the future with this type of people.
(violin soundtrack)

(fade out)


That's fantastic! I'm glad to hear that. Now instead of imagining all kinds of persecutions to be fearful of, they should look at the opportunity in front of them. The reason they are here is because it is better here than there. If it isn't, they they can always opt to go back there. This place is not a prison camp. Nobody is keeping anyone here against their will. The proposition to stay here is very easy and simple - don't commit any crimes. Now, is that really too much to ask for? Is that really difficult to do?

Last edited by Phos; 01.12.2010 at 12:46.
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  #856  
Old 01.12.2010, 11:49
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Was chatting to a friend last night, for him it was a clear-cut question on criminality and nothing else. He also bemoaned the fact that it was not possible to deport Swiss criminals. Having said that, he also stated he had very little time for the SVP per se, but he just happened to agree with their last 2 initiaitives.
So can I now generalise and state that this is obviously the case for all Swiss?

Addendum: oh yeah, he also voted "Yes" on the tax initiative, which I didn't.

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  #857  
Old 01.12.2010, 11:58
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I tried to tell them I hate the SVP too, but they relentlessly want to paint all Swiss as SVP Nazis. If they keep pushing that, they would probably find all kinds of reasons to believe it.

The issue is crime, nothing more.
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Old 01.12.2010, 12:33
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Oooh, I think this initiative will be fantastic for eastern european families, especially the younger generation. It's an opportunity to turn away from a life of crime, and focus on some meaningful personal development. I mean, seriously, that American hip hop thing just does not fly with the eastern european folks. The gangsta stuff went out of fashion 10 years ago. Cool smart kids in US ghetto would not get caught dead in that style anymore.

It's a life saving/life affirming opportunity to turn away from a life of crime. Imagine that, eh? Ivan S. no longer has to go on raping, and Silvana no longer has to fear the Ivans. In 10-20 years time, they can get their diploma and do something smart and valuable for themselves.

How cool is that, eh? Switzerland, the land of Opportunity!!!

Who could have imagined?
I hear the streets are paved with gold in America too, the land of opportunity they say...
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  #859  
Old 01.12.2010, 12:48
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Oh...Dear, I tried to hold my tongue (well fingers) but I had to bite on this one. Lets take this for example: You own the house you live in. You have lived in this house for many years. Your children were born in this house. If for some reason you can't pay the mortgage and have to leave, because your children were "born" in that house should they be allowed to stay there? Everyone must "leave the house". It doesn't matter if they were "born and raised in Switzerland". If they are not a citizen and commit a certain crime then they must leave. According to this new initiative.

The most influence a child has is their immediate environment "their home". We can't expect governments to raise our children too. You've got people reproducing "as we speak" birthing the new criminals of the world. Poor parenting is the cause of a lot of poorly behaved children.
Why are you comparing me loosing my job with my son committing a crime...please stay on topic and learn to read.

Children are heavily influenced by their social enviroment, I don't ask the government to raise my child, but they have a 50/50 responsibility as long as my son is attending school here no discussion there.

I would say that discrimination and racism have major impact on a childs behavoir and how he turns out then the parental part.
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  #860  
Old 01.12.2010, 12:51
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I would say that discrimination and racism have major impact on a childs behavoir and how he turns out then the parental part.
It's your job as a parent to teach him positive actions, okay?
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