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  #861  
Old 01.12.2010, 11:53
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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That's fantastic! I'm glad to hear that. Now instead of imagining all kinds of persecutions to be fearful of, they should look at the opportunity in front of them. The reason they are here is because it is better here than there. If it isn't, they they can always opt to go back there. This place is not a prison camp. Nobody is keeping anyone here against their will. The proposition to stay here is very easy and simple - don't commit any crimes. Now, is that really too much to ask for? Is that really difficult to do?
so since it's so easy.."don't commit any crimes", why does this not apply to Swiss citizens? For me it's worse that a Swiss commits a crime against his OWN country...what is his reasons?

Or you mean a Swiss has a reason to commit a crime while a foreigners dont`?---I dont get your argument...oh wait you dont have one...
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  #862  
Old 01.12.2010, 11:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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so since it's so easy.."don't commit any crimes", why does this not apply to Swiss citizens? For me it's worse that a Swiss commits a crime against his OWN country...what is his reasons?

Or you mean a Swiss has a reason to commit a crime while a foreigners dont`?---I dont get your argument...oh wait you dont have one...
Oh, so you want equal rights to commit crimes?

The same laws apply to Swiss citizens. If you have an idea of where to deport them, please let us know.
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  #863  
Old 01.12.2010, 11:59
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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That's fantastic! I'm gald to hear that. Now instead of imagining all kinds of persecutions to be fearful of, they should look at the opportunity in front of them. The reason they are here is because it is better here than there. If it isn't, they they can always opt to go back there. This place is not a prison camp. Nobody is keeping anyone here against their will. The proposition to stay here is very easy and simple - don't commit any crimes. Now, is that really too much to ask for? Is that really difficult to do?
NO, it is NOT, but the SVP's initiative it's not about that and you know it..
I do play violin...by the way..
You sound as if you tend to believe ALL of them have a predisposition towards crime....that's racist, even though skin colour is not involved. More punishment for some groups, 'cause you know, they're inclined to do "hip-hop" things.
Well, I think I had my word on this matter so it's time for me to leave it that way, but when racism and discrimination, prejudices and stereotypes of all sorts will hit YOU or your kin, don't ask for my help. (you know what I mean, it's generally speaking)
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  #864  
Old 01.12.2010, 12:01
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I tried to tell them I hate the SVP too, but they relentlessly want to paint all Swiss as SVP Nazis. If they keep pushing that, they would probably find all kinds of reasons to believe it.

The issue is crime, nothing more.
I thing the point that is hard to understand for you is that for foreigners here the point is not "crime". No one supports crime & criminals. The foreigners feel that there is more and more discrimination (minarets, etc...). For example today I read in 20minuten that SVP wants to limite the number of foreign students. So they take new steps to discriminate more and more foreigners. The trend is worrying.
I hope that you understand the point.
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  #865  
Old 01.12.2010, 12:12
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Yes, I understand the issue with racism. And yes, I see it exists here. But to imply that the Swiss are racists because they voted against crime - there is racism in that, no?

Racism is not easily eradicated. In fact, there is very little anyone can do for someone who holds racists opinions. The only thing you really have control of is what you do with yourself. Now, you can play along with what racists say, or you can prove them wrong by your actions.

It exists everywhere, even wherever you are from. And yes, I have seen racism even among the foreigner population here, even among eastern europeans racism exists. One of the best places to start to eradicate racism is to deal with one's own racist beliefs.
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  #866  
Old 01.12.2010, 12:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yes, I understand the issue with racism. And yes, I see it exists here. But to imply that the Swiss are racists because they voted against crime - there is racism in that, no?

Racism is not easily eradicated. In fact, there is very little anyone can do for someone who holds racists opinions. The only thing you really have control of is what you do with yourself. Now, you can play along with what racists say, or you can prove them wrong by your actions.

It exists everywhere, even wherever you are from. And yes, I have seen racism even among the foreigner population here, even among eastern europeans racism exists. One of the best places to start to eradicate racism is to deal with one's own racist beliefs.
I don't think the word racism applies here. I would not consider the swiss as racist. I am more speaking of xenophobic attitude.

By the way, a racist has a prejudice and will discard any good action done by a foreigner/ethnic group member and will always keep in mind the bad action of a foregner/ethnic group member.
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  #867  
Old 01.12.2010, 12:27
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I don't think the word racism applies here. I would not consider the swiss as racist. I am more speaking of xenophobic attitude.

By the way, a racist has a prejudice and will discard any good action done by a foreigner/ethnic group member and will always keep in mind the bad action of a foregner/ethnic group member.

Fine. Just for the sake of making a point, let's say they are all xenophobic and racist. Regardless, what you do with yourself is totally up to you. There are still a lot more good points to Switzerland than bad. If you don't think so, then it is probably time to consider leaving.

Now, you can focus on what is wrong, and get angry and paranoid. Or, you can focus on what is right, and actually start appreciating what is here. In fact, I think that if you are actually focused on what is right in Switzerland, and think in terms of what would be of even more benefit to life here, in maintaining what is right about it, I think you would even agree that an initiative like this against crime makes very good sense.
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  #868  
Old 01.12.2010, 12:37
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Have they changed their minds yet?

You'd think after all these pages on the English Forum, the Swiss would have done something about it, wouldn't you?

We'll show 'em!

Who's up for a Twitter campaign?
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  #869  
Old 01.12.2010, 12:39
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Who's up for a Twitter campaign?
It would be useful, except for the fact that barely anyone in Switzerland uses Twitter.
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  #870  
Old 01.12.2010, 12:42
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It would be useful, except for the fact that barely anyone in Switzerland uses Twitter.
Well, somebody should get Stephen Fry over here to show them what to do!

Won't somebody think of the children?!?
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  #871  
Old 01.12.2010, 12:44
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It would be useful, except for the fact that barely anyone in Switzerland uses Twitter.
I thought it was called Twatter? And people who use it are obviously...well, you get the picture.
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  #872  
Old 01.12.2010, 14:23
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Oh, so you want equal rights to commit crimes?

The same laws apply to Swiss citizens. If you have an idea of where to deport them, please let us know.
That's the point (doh!), with this new initiative swiss and foreigners are not the same in front the law!
I want equal rights to a fair punishment, with ALL circumstances taken into considerations...you can't simply say "don't commit crimes"...

Usually when a person commits a crime a lot of factors are taken into consideration when deciding the punishment, but where as now this is not the case...do you now understand?

There is always a reason for people committing a crime, to just say that it all depends on your parents being able to raise you correctly is very very simplied, and that is not the case...

An example...

A swiss marries a woman from another country and get a child together, he's very aggressive, and beats her year after year, she reports to the police but there are not enough evidence, after a while enough is enough she kills him...she will definitely be deported because of the circumstances she committed the crime is not taken into consideration which itself is a violation of the human rights...

Now I tried really to explain it on a level where even my son (5years old) can understand...please discontinue with the SVP-mantras...
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  #873  
Old 01.12.2010, 14:47
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Now, you can focus on what is wrong, and get angry and paranoid. Or, you can focus on what is right, and actually start appreciating what is here. .


Ironically, you've summed up the point of many people who were against SVP's "initiative"....

Sounds like double standards to me...AGAIN?

I know I said I'd leave it "that way", but couldn't help....your amunition is..pathetic.
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  #874  
Old 01.12.2010, 15:08
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Look guys, it's very simple. There are laws here. Some laws I don't like. Some laws many Swiss do not like. Some laws you do not like. It's a fact of life in a democracy. Nobody gets everything their way in a democracy. But everyone has the right to whine and bitch about the laws they do not like, and how much smarter they are than everybody else. But who cares really? As long as you follow the laws, you won't be affected by them. If you don't like democracy, try another country that doesn't have it. Try North Korea, Saudi Arabia, or some other that won't even give you the right to complain. Perhaps it would put an end to your complaints.
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  #875  
Old 01.12.2010, 15:53
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Look guys, it's very simple. There are laws here. Some laws I don't like. Some laws many Swiss do not like. Some laws you do not like. It's a fact of life in a democracy. Nobody gets everything their way in a democracy. But everyone has the right to whine and bitch about the laws they do not like, and how much smarter they are than everybody else. But who cares really? As long as you follow the laws, you won't be affected by them. If you don't like democracy, try another country that doesn't have it. Try North Korea, Saudi Arabia, or some other that won't even give you the right to complain. Perhaps it would put an end to your complaints.
god man, do you even red, the LAW always considers under which circumstances a crime is committed...BUT in this case not for foreigners and that IS a violation of the human rights...

bringing up how it's in other countries is irrelevant and only proves that you have no arguements...and why always compare with worse, shouldn't compare with BETTER examples? There will be no or little progress if you compare with places where things are worse..

Life is far away as simplistic as you make it out to be...

...and this campaign had very little with democracy to do...
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  #876  
Old 01.12.2010, 15:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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god man, do you even red, the LAW always considers under which circumstances a crime is committed...BUT in this case not for foreigners and that IS a violation of the human rights...
Wait a minute, surely the trial process itself takes into account the circumstances. They can't expel a foreigner who was acquitted of a crime.
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  #877  
Old 01.12.2010, 16:27
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I thing the point that is hard to understand for you is that for foreigners here the point is not "crime". No one supports crime & criminals. The foreigners feel that there is more and more discrimination (minarets, etc...). For example today I read in 20minuten that SVP wants to limite the number of foreign students. So they take new steps to discriminate more and more foreigners. The trend is worrying.
I hope that you understand the point.
The SVP wants many things but is prone to lose public votings. But if they put forward an initiative demanding that ALL students speak and understand German in the universities in German speaking cantons, French in French speaking cantons, Italian in Lugano and German+French in Fribourg/Freiburg, they have a chance to succeed. There is no possibility to "reduce" the number of foreign students numerically. Whether a proposal to raise fees for either "non-resident foreigners" or "both non-resident and resident foreigners" at universities would have much chance is rather doubtful.

And again, they canNOT "take new steps to discriminate more and more foreigners" so simply, as straight actions to discriminate foreigners as a whole may most likely be rejected.
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  #878  
Old 01.12.2010, 16:33
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Wait a minute, surely the trial process itself takes into account the circumstances. They can't expel a foreigner who was acquitted of a crime.
isn't it a different authority which examines whether someone has to be convicted for a crime and whether a deportation can be carried out or not (e.g. would the person be tortured in his homecountry)?

It's an examination of two different problems by two different authorities. So, shouldn't there be the possibility to appeal in both cases?
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  #879  
Old 01.12.2010, 16:47
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Why are you comparing me loosing my job with my son committing a crime...please stay on topic and learn to read.

Children are heavily influenced by their social enviroment, I don't ask the government to raise my child, but they have a 50/50 responsibility as long as my son is attending school here no discussion there.

I would say that discrimination and racism have major impact on a childs behavoir and how he turns out then the parental part.
Oh...Dear...you are a bit lost love...
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  #880  
Old 01.12.2010, 16:48
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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you have to see that most of the opposition to the SP initiative came from the point that the SP initiative aimed at a centralisation in favour of the powers of the union, a concept which is most unpopular even among fairly leftist voters.



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The Schengen- and Dublin-agreements were pushed through federal votings by Mrs Micheline Calmy-Rey and her SP unbelievably successfully. Other changes initiated by the SP in fact DID pass through federal votings many many times. To say it again, over the years, the SP was far more successful than the SVP, both on Federal and on Cantonal level. The CVP which once was the powerful KKP (Catholic-Conservative Party) in the "Innerschweiz" (Central Switzerland) and in staunchly Catholic Cantons like Freiburg/Fribourg and Wallis/Valais has become a small fringe party with the old KK-wing and a social-liberal wing, but is simply unable to be creative. The BDP is a 4% party at present and so almost irrelevant except that it, until late next years, has a seat in the Federal government. The FDP, the traditional "government party" is a bit a lame party in regard to new ideas.

Yes I know the SP have been successful in the recent past, although the Schengen vote was 5 years ago and i believe all parties were for it apart from the SVP.
Everyone knows where the SP and SVP stand on issues.
You say that the CVP,FDP and BDP are fringe parties yet they are all (still) in the government. I find all of these parties need to find a voice quickly rather than basically just always taking sides with the SP or SVP otherwise their vote will sink even further. I think most people would find it hard to find a topic where one of these parties took the lead.
Apparently the CVP brought up the issue of foreign students months ago but because they don't have a voice this will still be known as a SVP topic should something become of it
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