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  #881  
Old 01.12.2010, 16:50
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Wait a minute, surely the trial process itself takes into account the circumstances. They can't expel a foreigner who was acquitted of a crime.
But sentencing often also takes circustances into account - which is no longer the case.
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  #882  
Old 01.12.2010, 16:51
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yes I know the SP have been successful in the recent past, although the Schengen vote was 5 years ago and i believe all parties were for it apart from the SVP.
Everyone knows where the SP and SVP stand on issues.
You say that the CVP,FDP and BDP are fringe parties yet they are all (still) in the government. I find all of these parties need to find a voice quickly rather than basically just always taking sides with the SP or SVP otherwise their vote will sink even further. I think most people would find it hard to find a topic where one of these parties took the lead.
Apparently the CVP brought up the issue of foreign students months ago but because they don't have a voice this will still be known as a SVP topic should something become of it
Interesting to see how the BDP fare in next year's elections. Am I correct in thinking there hasn't been a major election since its formation? I think they will pick up a lot of disgruntled SVPers, especially in Graubunden and Suisse romand.
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  #883  
Old 01.12.2010, 16:52
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I thought it was called Twatter? And people who use it are obviously...well, you get the picture.
I'll finish it for you...Twitts...LOL
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  #884  
Old 01.12.2010, 16:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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But sentencing often also takes circustances into account - which is no longer the case.
Hang on, I think we might be talking at cross purposes here; are we referring to circumstances of the crime itself, or circumstances of the individual?
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  #885  
Old 01.12.2010, 17:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Out of curiousity. Do people think foreigners should never be allowed to get kicked out of a foreign country no matter what they have done?

If the answer is no they should be never be allowed to be deported, well I find that ridiculous.

If the answer is yes BUT.......well this is what the discussion is about, but then the accusations of discrimination has no place here.

People said they wouldn't mind the initiative if it doesn't count for 2nd generation foreigners. Well my answer is your still discriminating against foreigners your making 2 classes of foreigners. The 'real' foreigners and the 'paper' foreigners. I'm against this as much as I'm against people being labelled 'real' swiss and 'paper' Swiss who have the pass on probation.
You either are or your not
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  #886  
Old 01.12.2010, 17:02
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Interesting to see how the BDP fare in next year's elections. Am I correct in thinking there hasn't been a major election since its formation? I think they will pick up a lot of disgruntled SVPers, especially in Graubunden and Suisse romand.
Yep. But how many disgruntled CVP,BDP,FDP voters will they pick up? It will be interesting to see how they fare
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  #887  
Old 01.12.2010, 17:03
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Also a very good summary:

http://againstdeportationinitiative.ch/campaign-us/
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  #888  
Old 01.12.2010, 17:07
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Out of curiousity. Do people think foreigners should never be allowed to get kicked out of a foreign country no matter what they have done?

If the answer is no they should be never be allowed to be deported, well I find that ridiculous.

If the answer is yes BUT.......well this is what the discussion is about, but then the accusations of discrimination has no place here.

People said they wouldn't mind the initiative if it doesn't count for 2nd generation foreigners. Well my answer is your still discriminating against foreigners your making 2 classes of foreigners. The 'real' foreigners and the 'paper' foreigners. I'm against this as much as I'm against people being labelled 'real' swiss and 'paper' Swiss who have the pass on probation.
You either are or your not
There is already a system existing today which will take care of criminal foreigners, but with the initiative you can get kicked out for minor offenses....
I don't understand what all the fuss was about...
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  #889  
Old 01.12.2010, 18:30
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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There is already a system existing today which will take care of criminal foreigners, but with the initiative you can get kicked out for minor offenses....
I don't understand what all the fuss was about...
That's exactly it. We don't know how minor the crime will be. The law has yet to be determined.
Welfare fraud and drug dealing can also be a major crime. If this is what all the uproar was about than I say lets wait and see before getting all worked up. If its like the counter initiative which had a 2 year prison sentence as the limit then I think it's fair enough. You don't get 2 years for stealing a mars bar. If they really want to deport some one for stealing a mars bar then I'll be the first to lay in to the law makers.

I just wanted to add with regards to secondos, I also think the talking point with them should be about making it more easier for them to become Swiss not about trying to make exceptions for them. There was an initiative for this a year or 2 ago but inevitably it got turned down
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  #890  
Old 01.12.2010, 18:38
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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There is already a system existing today which will take care of criminal foreigners, but with the initiative you can get kicked out for minor offenses....
Yet again this is NOT true...
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  #891  
Old 01.12.2010, 21:22
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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There is already a system existing today which will take care of criminal foreigners, but with the initiative you can get kicked out for minor offenses....
I don't understand what all the fuss was about...
So by your definition, there is already discrimination, but you seem to be quite happy about it.
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  #892  
Old 01.12.2010, 22:40
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yet again this is NOT true...
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Yet again this is NOT true..
that really depends on whether the parlament keeps really close to the wording of the new constitunional provision or interpretes it more freely. The provision mentions "Einbruchdiebstahl=burglary". So if you break into kiosk stealing a pack of cigarettes you commmit a Einbruchdiebstahl under Swiss criminal a law. So you could theoretically be expelled for just a minor offence.

I don't think that will happen though as the act implementing the constitunional provision needs the approval not just of the SVP but also of some of the other big parties (FDP, CVP etc.).
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  #893  
Old 02.12.2010, 01:47
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yes I know the SP have been successful in the recent past, although the Schengen vote was 5 years ago and i believe all parties were for it apart from the SVP.
Everyone knows where the SP and SVP stand on issues.
You say that the CVP,FDP and BDP are fringe parties yet they are all (still) in the government. I find all of these parties need to find a voice quickly rather than basically just always taking sides with the SP or SVP otherwise their vote will sink even further. I think most people would find it hard to find a topic where one of these parties took the lead.
Apparently the CVP brought up the issue of foreign students months ago but because they don't have a voice this will still be known as a SVP topic should something become of it

Noooooooooooooooo, the FDP is NOT "fringe" but THE traditional government party. The CVP has been and still is THE party of the conservative-catholic Innerschweiz and of course are still a major party. The fringe party I described is the BDP. Back to the FDP, their chief, Mr Pelli IS a "voice" usually not taking sides with either SP nor SVP. And Mr Darbelley is an outspoken voice of the CVP. No the students issue is NOT known as a SVP topic but IS known as a CVP issue still . To describe Messrs Pelli and Darbelley as NON-voices goes clearly too far.



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But sentencing often also takes circustances into account - which is no longer the case.
Wrong. Sentencing of course also in future takes circumstances into account, as no law in this respect is changed. Do not forget that a deportation according to the new law can be or/and will be the result of the final sentence. A lawyer for the defence if going into appeal therefore of course will appeal against the court verdict and NOT against the "administrative procedure".


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Interesting to see how the BDP fare in next year's elections. Am I correct in thinking there hasn't been a major election since its formation? I think they will pick up a lot of disgruntled SVPers, especially in Graubunden and Suisse romand.

You indeed are right, it is their first election on a federal level. They will try to pick up whomever is no longer content with traditional parties.


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There is already a system existing today which will take care of criminal foreigners, but with the initiative you can get kicked out for minor offenses....
I don't understand what all the fuss was about...
Nobody can be kicked out for minor offences


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that really depends on whether the parlament keeps really close to the wording of the new constitunional provision or interpretes it more freely. The provision mentions "Einbruchdiebstahl=burglary". So if you break into kiosk stealing a pack of cigarettes you commmit a Einbruchdiebstahl under Swiss criminal a law. So you could theoretically be expelled for just a minor offence.

I don't think that will happen though as the act implementing the constitunional provision needs the approval not just of the SVP but also of some of the other big parties (FDP, CVP etc.).





The burglary thing has been a major point for me to object the Initiative. If this point gets interpreted the SVP way, a foreigner might even become subject of post-punishment deporation in case of breaking into a public toilet closed at the time of his immediate need !


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Last edited by Wollishofener; 02.12.2010 at 02:21.
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  #894  
Old 02.12.2010, 02:04
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yep. But how many disgruntled CVP,BDP,FDP voters will they pick up? It will be interesting to see how they fare

Whom do you mean by THEM ? The SVP ? They of course for years have tried to pick up disgruntled followers of other parties. The point however is that this time they are under attack by the BDP. They hardly can pick up disgruntled BDP voters as there are none. The BDP which got out of the SVP will however try to take former SVP folks over to them. Much of the present strength of the SVP is the result of them capturing sections of what earlier was the powerbase of the CVP. There were many disgruntled FDP voters after the collapse of Swissair, but hardly many at present. Quite to the contrary, Mr Pelli and his party are getting out now to capture back voters from the SVP.
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  #895  
Old 02.12.2010, 10:04
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yet again this is NOT true...
According to :
http://www.bernerzeitung.ch/schweiz/...dossier_id=543

Laut Initiative der SVP würde ausserdem bereits das Verschweigen von Einkünften in Höhe von beispielsweise 200 Franken zu einer Ausweisung führen, sagte Felix Wolffers. Er ist Leiter des Sozialamts der Stadt Bern. Auch nicht strafbare Handlungen im Bereich der Sozialhilfe könnten eine Ausweisung als Konsequenz haben, sagte er.

Which means that you could get deported for "fraud" of an amount of 200CHF, seems quite minor to me...
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  #896  
Old 02.12.2010, 10:10
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

...also the "Delikkatalog" is not fully defined yet, so how can people be so sure what "crimes" will be in it? ...i.e. SVP tricked everyone!
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  #897  
Old 02.12.2010, 10:10
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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According to :
http://www.bernerzeitung.ch/schweiz/...dossier_id=543

Laut Initiative der SVP würde ausserdem bereits das Verschweigen von Einkünften in Höhe von beispielsweise 200 Franken zu einer Ausweisung führen, sagte Felix Wolffers. Er ist Leiter des Sozialamts der Stadt Bern. Auch nicht strafbare Handlungen im Bereich der Sozialhilfe könnten eine Ausweisung als Konsequenz haben, sagte er.

Which means that you could get deported for "fraud" of an amount of 200CHF, seems quite minor to me...
Is he a politician? Will he be part of the task force to decide on which offences constitute expulsion? It's speculative and simply his opinion.
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  #898  
Old 02.12.2010, 10:22
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I love the way people are saying fraud and breaking in can be a minor offence! both require fore thought and some planning, sure break in somewhere and only steal a mars bar, but somewhere there is a victim, the poor shop owner up stairs who can no longer sleep at night because they don't feel safe etc

The poor fraud victim that 'only' lost 100chf, but now's feels so stupid they fell for it and are now suicidal etc

Over reacting? I used to own a game machine company in the uk, one of the pubs we had a machine in was broken into, they didn't actually manage to steal anything (they where idiots) they did some damage to our machine so we had to collect it to fix, the landlady was now so scared she closed the pub, she lost her house, business and lively hood. but by your definition this would be a minor crime requiring a slapped wrist.

Any premeditated crime should get you kicked out imho.
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  #899  
Old 02.12.2010, 10:33
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I love the way people are saying fraud and breaking in can be a minor offence! both require fore thought and some planning, sure break in somewhere and only steal a mars bar, but somewhere there is a victim, the poor shop owner up stairs who can no longer sleep at night because they don't feel safe etc

The poor fraud victim that 'only' lost 100chf, but now's feels so stupid they fell for it and are now suicidal etc

Over reacting? I used to own a game machine company in the uk, one of the pubs we had a machine in was broken into, they didn't actually manage to steal anything (they where idiots) they did some damage to our machine so we had to collect it to fix, the landlady was now so scared she closed the pub, she lost her house, business and lively hood. but by your definition this would be a minor crime requiring a slapped wrist.

Any premeditated crime should get you kicked out imho.
Love your game machine story...very touching

I'm glad you're not the one to decide
We're talking about IV, I bet nobody at IV will take their life over this...

I'm not saying that it isnt a crime, I'm just saying that it's too harsh to get deported for this "offense"...which easily could be a honest mistake..get my drift bubba?
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Old 02.12.2010, 10:34
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Is he a politician? Will he be part of the task force to decide on which offences constitute expulsion? It's speculative and simply his opinion.
he probably has more insight then you and me...but you seem to be so sure, are you in the task force? no? thought so...
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