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02.12.2010, 10:37
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | |  | | | he probably has more insight then you and me...but you seem to be so sure, are you in the task force? no? thought so... | | | | | Then again, he might not. Who knows? Let's just wait and see shall we, before starting the assumption game?
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02.12.2010, 11:41
| | Member | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Zurich
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | I love the way people are saying fraud and breaking in can be a minor offence! both require fore thought and some planning, sure break in somewhere and only steal a mars bar, but somewhere there is a victim, the poor shop owner up stairs who can no longer sleep at night because they don't feel safe etc
The poor fraud victim that 'only' lost 100chf, but now's feels so stupid they fell for it and are now suicidal etc
Over reacting? I used to own a game machine company in the uk, one of the pubs we had a machine in was broken into, they didn't actually manage to steal anything (they where idiots) they did some damage to our machine so we had to collect it to fix, the landlady was now so scared she closed the pub, she lost her house, business and lively hood. but by your definition this would be a minor crime requiring a slapped wrist.
Any premeditated crime should get you kicked out imho. | | | | | Really? Kick somebody out of the country for stealing a Mars bar, maybe a minor or first time offender, who was born here and has no links to his country of origin? Sure he should be punished but the sanction should be in proportion with the offence committed. Automatically expelling a person for a minor offences without considering the circumstances of the specific case can only lead to cruel and unjust results.
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02.12.2010, 11:44
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Glarus
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | Really? Kick somebody out of the country for stealing a Mars bar, maybe a minor or first time offender, who was born here and has no links to his country of origin? Sure he should be punished but the sanction should be in proportion with the offence committed. Automatically expelling a person for a minor offences without considering the circumstances of the specific case can only lead to cruel and unjust results. | | | | |
well that's not what I said now is it, shoplifting a mars bar, no
breaking into a shop/premises to steal a marsbar - yes.
if the law is clear and unambiguous then you know where the line is, and if you cross it you know what will happen, the only person to blame is you
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02.12.2010, 13:15
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Aargau
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | Then again, he might not. Who knows? Let's just wait and see shall we, before starting the assumption game? | | | | | my statements came at least from references whereas the SVP-fan-boys just grasp them from a clear blue sky...
I still wait for a comment on how there could be a vote on something that is not cleary define...bananarepublic comes to mind
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02.12.2010, 13:18
| | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Aargau
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | well that's not what I said now is it, shoplifting a mars bar, no
breaking into a shop/premises to steal a marsbar - yes.
if the law is clear and unambiguous then you know where the line is, and if you cross it you know what will happen, the only person to blame is you | | | | | the punishment should fit the crime...we're not in middle east or in Singapore are we? I guess you are the person who would like to see public beating...
If there was a law that said : if you drive 10km/h more than the allowed speed limit you will loose your license...- would you still agree to this?
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02.12.2010, 13:20
| | | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | I still wait for a comment on how there could be a vote on something that is not cleary define...bananarepublic comes to mind | | | | | That is normal. The initiative express the will of the people. The implementation is the responsibility of the government.
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02.12.2010, 13:22
| | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Glarus
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | the punishment should fit the crime...we're not in middle east or in Singapore are we? I guess you are the person who would like to see public beating...
If there was a law that said : if you drive 10km/h more than the allowed speed limit you will loose your license...- would you still agree to this? | | | | |
what a well thought out and balanced argument you present.
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02.12.2010, 13:24
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Gersau
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | I still wait for a comment on how there could be a vote on something that is not cleary define...bananarepublic comes to mind | | | | | Seriously? You are kidding right?
In Switzerland - There is a vote at least. It might not be perfect but hell at least there was a vote!
In most Western "Democracies" (UK as a good example) - The goverment just decide on these laws and pass them no matter the general feeling of the people. That includes going to war and eroding civil rights. Every 4 (or so) years you get to choose between a couple of parties that are so similar you can't really choose.
In countries not even lucky enough to have a Western Democracy - Well here you are in Banana Republic territory. Here your government will shoot you for asking questions about it or not prommising your life long support of a single party, dictator ridden hell hole.
I think you may need to go quite a way before you can start calling the "frustrating alpine democracy" a banana replublic....he-he.
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Living it up in Gersau.
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02.12.2010, 13:24
| | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Aargau
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | what a well thought out and balanced argument you present. | | | | | please just answer...would you? Y/N?
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02.12.2010, 13:26
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | please just answer...would you? Y/N? | | | | |
so now your asking for clear cut y/n answers??
I stated already my opnion, your trying to twist it, I'll not be entering into a pointless discussion with you about it.
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02.12.2010, 13:26
| | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Gersau
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | please just answer...would you? Y/N? | | | | | The current speeding laws in this country are very strict. I assume that people already agreed "yes". I don't think we need to drive (sorry bad pun) the whole argument down to what amounts to "kilometers per hour".  |
02.12.2010, 13:27
| | | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | I think you may need to go quite a way before you can start calling the "frustrating alpine democracy" a banana replublic....he-he. | | | | | It's like a desperate attempt to get people to agree with him.  Call them all kinds of things!
Undemocratic!
Nazis!
Banana Republic!
Stupids!
OS, er.... It doesn't look like it is working, mate.
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02.12.2010, 13:29
| | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Gersau
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
Sorry, I little, little off topic here but can somebody tell me how the two votes (tax and booting criminals) went as I have been out of the country. Tx.  |
02.12.2010, 13:31
| | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Glarus
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | Sorry, I little, little off topic here but can somebody tell me how the two votes (tax and booting criminals) went as I have been out of the country. Tx. | | | | |
tax - no
booting - yes
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02.12.2010, 13:35
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: d' Innerschwiiz
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
Obviously there is a need for a platform for foreigners where they can make their opinions heard in the Swiss community. What would be the name of the party?
The foreigners' Volkspartei?
The Auslander Voice?
The Black Sheep?
Last edited by olygirl; 02.12.2010 at 13:38.
Reason: correct poor grammar
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02.12.2010, 13:45
| | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Aargau
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | Seriously? You are kidding right?
In Switzerland - There is a vote at least. It might not be perfect but hell at least there was a vote!
In most Western "Democracies" (UK as a good example) - The goverment just decide on these laws and pass them no matter the general feeling of the people. That includes going to war and eroding civil rights. Every 4 (or so) years you get to choose between a couple of parties that are so similar you can't really choose.
In countries not even lucky enough to have a Western Democracy - Well here you are in Banana Republic territory. Here your government will shoot you for asking questions about it or not prommising your life long support of a single party, dictator ridden hell hole.
I think you may need to go quite a way before you can start calling the "frustrating alpine democracy" a banana replublic....he-he. | | | | | Last time I checked the polticians in europe are democratically voted for? No? Yes?...yes.
The way SVP are conducting their politic and they way the cheat and lie, really reminds me of a bananarepublic...still I pay my taxes here so I'm not really interested how things are done in Congo...
Direct democracy only works on local level, for instance should the gemeinde repair a street etc. There are way too many parameters to consider for the common man in complex questions like this, and it's way too emotional...
So you think that the decisions that politicians make for you are not democratic enough and the initiatives are really the voice of the people...
This initiative got 53% (of the people which are allowed to vote.... )
i.e. 1.4 Million of 5 million...from my math is 1.4 not the majority 5 million...
Link: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/29080283 http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...teiligung.html |
02.12.2010, 13:52
| | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Aargau
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | The current speeding laws in this country are very strict. I assume that people already agreed "yes". I don't think we need to drive (sorry bad pun) the whole argument down to what amounts to "kilometers per hour". | | | | | the km/h are not important...the question is, the punishment should be reasonable, is it reasonable (even if the LAW says so) that you should loose you license for driving 10km/h too fast? Of course not...is it reasonable that you should get deported if you steal a Mars, even if breaking an entry? Of course not...
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02.12.2010, 13:55
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | is it reasonable that you should get deported if you steal a Mars, even if breaking an entry? Of course not... | | | | | Maybe, maybe not, but it's one hell of a deterrent, no?
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02.12.2010, 13:57
| | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Aargau
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | It's like a desperate attempt to get people to agree with him. Call them all kinds of things!
Undemocratic!
Nazis!
Banana Republic!
Stupids!
OS, er.... It doesn't look like it is working, mate. | | | | | Sorry Pnos I'm not here to convince people, are you? Just want to vent "mate"...
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02.12.2010, 13:58
| | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Glarus
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| | | Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?
| Quote: | | | | | the km/h are not important...the question is, the punishment should be reasonable, is it reasonable (even if the LAW says so) that you should loose you license for driving 10km/h too fast? Of course not...is it reasonable that you should get deported if you steal a Mars, even if breaking an entry? Of course not... | | | | | so monetary value seems to be your gauge of the seriousness of a crime.
just how much do you need to steal when breaking into someone's house for it to be serious?
call me old fasioned but I'd say breaking into somewhere, regardless of what you take, is a serious crime.
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