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  #921  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Maybe, maybe not, but it's one hell of a deterrent, no?
...yes...

why not zero tolerance for all crimes and offenses...we should a poll..anyone?
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  #922  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:05
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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...yes...

why not zero tolerance for all crimes and offenses...we should a poll..anyone?
Didn't Giuliani introduce that in NYC and crime rates plummeted?
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  #923  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:07
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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so monetary value seems to be your gauge of the seriousness of a crime.

just how much do you need to steal when breaking into someone's house for it to be serious?

call me old fasioned but I'd say breaking into somewhere, regardless of what you take, is a serious crime.
finally I got you thinking...exactly "how much do you need to steal for it to be a serious crime?" I.e. What are the circumstances? Was anyone hurt? etc.

This is exactly my point, things are not black and white...

If someone broke into my garden house and stole my lawn mower I personally wouldn't consider this as a serious crime...

But if a police chief was selling drugs, I would...but for instance in Switzerland it's not seen as a serious crime...

http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/heu...-urteil-161428

But I bet if he came from Africa he would get deported in a second...lol
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  #924  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:09
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Didn't Giuliani introduce that in NYC and crime rates plummeted?
...because Switzerland is today like NYC was in the 70-80s...
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  #925  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:13
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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...because Switzerland is today like NYC was in the 70-80s...
Nicely twisted. All I was doing was providing an example (anyway, he wasn't even mayor in the 70s and 80s).

Can you provide a counter-example where increased tolerance led to reduced crime?
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  #926  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Last time I checked the polticians in europe are democratically voted for? No? Yes?...yes.
No. (As that is the sort of answers you like).
Sort of, depending on how you define democracy and politicians and want to have a less "black and white sheep" debate about the whole scenario.

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The way SVP are conducting their politic and they way the cheat and lie, really reminds me of a bananarepublic...still I pay my taxes here so I'm not really interested how things are done in Congo...
To really understand a banana replublic you should live in one and pay taxes in one first and if you are not interested in the way things are done there, then how could you possibly hope to know what one is. Without that knowledge, I would say you are reaching a bit on the whole comparison bit, don't you think? Or did you?

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Direct democracy only works on local level, for instance should the gemeinde repair a street etc. There are way too many parameters to consider for the common man in complex questions like this, and it's way too emotional...
Wow, that is a big statement. I personally think that direct democracy works very well on all levels if you meet a number of critical criteria. All political systems are flawed as is any abstracted system of any nature, but typically the direct democracy performed here seems (according to all my personal measures) to work very well, much better than most places, hence ironically the fact that I live here.

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So you think that the decisions that politicians make for you are not democratic enough and the initiatives are really the voice of the people...
I can't remember saying that at all? Hey, everybody, did I say that? Was I drunk at the time....I do love to sprout off after a couple of drinks....

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Sorry Pnos I'm not here to convince people, are you?
I would not dare to speak for Pnos over there but I certainly believe that a key enjoyment of engaging in healthy intellectual debate is to convice people, to change minds, both others and my own!

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Just want to vent "mate"...
Ah, welcome to the club! Don't take any of it too seriously and let rip! Otherwise if you pen it all up you become on of those strange people who start screwed up political parties and end up causing world wars, right?
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  #927  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:19
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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finally I got you thinking...exactly "how much do you need to steal for it to be a serious crime?" I.e. What are the circumstances? Was anyone hurt? etc.
no, you didn't, the cost has nothing to do with it, the crime is the crime regardless, just because burgler 1 only got a mars bar makes it no different to burgler 2 getting away with a tv.

in my previous example burgler got away with nothing, yet totally wrecked a womans life.
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  #928  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:22
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Can you provide a counter-example where increased tolerance led to reduced crime?
I can. Over the last hundreds of years, crime has come to be seen more as a symptom than the cause and is now often solved through rehabilitation rather than decapitation! If you look at systems like the Scandanavian rehabilitiation systems you will find quite often that crime decreases when society sees that the vast majority of crime is caused by a social ill, not the cause of social ill. When the social ill is cured, then quite often the crime will abate. When people have food, they don't so much steal food. When people are loved they don't so often commit hate crimes. It sort of makes sense in a horrible little way.

Not that I am trying to back up anybody elses argument up here...mind!!!
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  #929  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:24
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

To add a counterpoint over here, I would be very interested to see what the Swiss judiciary make of this whole thing. I mean after all politicians and people can sprout off all they want, it is going to be the justice system that will impliment and practice.
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  #930  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:32
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Nicely twisted. All I was doing was providing an example (anyway, he wasn't even mayor in the 70s and 80s).

Can you provide a counter-example where increased tolerance led to reduced crime?
Canada, see under punishment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada

Usa has tougher punishment => more crimes...(?)

also some good reading:
http://passrobcp-lc.blogspot.com/

I didnt say he was the mayor, I meant that NYC was an anarchy back then...and something had to be done, and where as Switzerland has one of lowest crime rate in europe...

and where as UK has to highest crime rates in europe! nice award!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...frica-U-S.html
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  #931  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:33
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I can. Over the last hundreds of years, crime has come to be seen more as a symptom than the cause and is now often solved through rehabilitation rather than decapitation! If you look at systems like the Scandanavian rehabilitiation systems you will find quite often that crime decreases when society sees that the vast majority of crime is caused by a social ill, not the cause of social ill. When the social ill is cured, then quite often the crime will abate. When people have food, they don't so much steal food. When people are loved they don't so often commit hate crimes. It sort of makes sense in a horrible little way.

Not that I am trying to back up anybody elses argument up here...mind!!!
I asked for a counter-example, not a social theory lesson. So you're saying there is less crime in Sweden now than 100 years ago?
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  #932  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:36
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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/snip
and where as UK has to highest crime rates in europe! nice award!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...frica-U-S.html
Which could be argued is due to increased immigration, ineffective police and lenient courts. ASBOs? Oh please:
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  #933  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:39
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No. (As that is the sort of answers you like).
Sort of, depending on how you define democracy and politicians and want to have a less "black and white sheep" debate about the whole scenario.


To really understand a banana replublic you should live in one and pay taxes in one first and if you are not interested in the way things are done there, then how could you possibly hope to know what one is. Without that knowledge, I would say you are reaching a bit on the whole comparison bit, don't you think? Or did you?


Wow, that is a big statement. I personally think that direct democracy works very well on all levels if you meet a number of critical criteria. All political systems are flawed as is any abstracted system of any nature, but typically the direct democracy performed here seems (according to all my personal measures) to work very well, much better than most places, hence ironically the fact that I live here.


I can't remember saying that at all? Hey, everybody, did I say that? Was I drunk at the time....I do love to sprout off after a couple of drinks....


I would not dare to speak for Pnos over there but I certainly believe that a key enjoyment of engaging in healthy intellectual debate is to convice people, to change minds, both others and my own!


Ah, welcome to the club! Don't take any of it too seriously and let rip! Otherwise if you pen it all up you become on of those strange people who start screwed up political parties and end up causing world wars, right?
..ofc Switzerland is not a banana republic , Switzerland has one of the best political system in world, that's why I see little need of public voting...

what I ment was that the initiative conducted by SVP had so many obvious flaws, which is unworthy a land as this...
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  #934  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:41
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Which could be argued is due to increased immigration, ineffective police and lenient courts. ASBOs? Oh please:
sorry I was just making a reference...
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  #935  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:42
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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..ofc Switzerland is not a banana republic , Switzerland has one of the best political system in world, that's why I see little need of public voting...
And you don't think it has the best political system BECAUSE of the public voting?

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what I ment was that the initiative conducted by SVP had so many obvious flaws, which is unworthy a land as this...
Why unworthy? I think it's at the heart of democracy itself.
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  #936  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:49
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I asked for a counter-example, not a social theory lesson.
Sorry...(pushes his soapbox back under the desk.)
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So you're saying there is less crime in Sweden now than 100 years ago?
Violent crime per captia, yes, without a doubt!
Some things like speeding that would not have been considdered crimes then, most probably no.
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  #937  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:53
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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..ofc Switzerland is not a banana republic , Switzerland has one of the best political system in world, that's why I see little need of public voting...
Sorry but in my humble opinion, public voting is the very foundation of direct democracy. The idea that each individual is a representative due to the ability to voice their oppinion through the vote is the key to the success of this political system.
Freedom means that even the wackos get to have their own way occasionally. I in no way support the SVP or thier agenda, but I very firmly support their right to be heard and to insist on having votes cast on their ideas.
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  #938  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:55
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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And you don't think it has the best political system BECAUSE of the public voting?



Why unworthy? I think it's at the heart of democracy itself.
that's why I wrote "that's why I see little need of public voting...", for point of issues that is...and I already explained why I think that it does not work when the issues are very complex...

Why unworthy? Because SVP used very cheap methods and lies...and spent millions on their campaign where as the counterpart was more or less invisible...
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  #939  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:55
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Violent crime per captia, yes, without a doubt!
Actually, violent crime per capita almost tripled between 1975 and 2006. OK, this doesn't go back 100 years, but I can't imagine a huge reversal in the trend.
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  #940  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Why unworthy? Because SVP used very cheap methods and lies...and spent millions on their campaign where as the counterpart was more or less invisible...
Surely the fault there lies with the opposition then.
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