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  #941  
Old 02.12.2010, 14:57
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Deportation is a disproportionate punishment for selling something, the consumption of which is virtually tolerated.
Although I suppose, that would rather depend on how much was being sold!
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  #942  
Old 02.12.2010, 15:01
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Surely the fault there lies with the opposition then.
yes! totally agree...
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  #943  
Old 02.12.2010, 15:06
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Actually, violent crime per capita almost tripled between 1975 and 2006. OK, this doesn't go back 100 years, but I can't imagine a huge reversal in the trend.
Actually my original statement was over hundreds of years.
Now, I won't refute that reported violent crime may have tripled in the last 30 years. It is quite well known that Sweden has a problem with domestic violence and that only recently it has been reported more. I think you will find that the actual violent crime rates are generally falling within the native populous. Immigrants may not have access to the social or ethical benefits provided by the country yet so may contribute to higher figures as well.
It is thought that as little as five hundred years ago in Europe 80% of people died violent deaths. I would say today’s figures are significantly down.
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  #944  
Old 02.12.2010, 15:12
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Actually my original statement was over hundreds of years.

Fair enough, I misread your statement.
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It is thought that as little as five hundred years ago in Europe 80% of people died violent deaths. I would say today’s figures are significantly down.
Is that actually the case? I would say disease was probably the biggest killer in 16th century Europe. Would like to see some facts and figures though.
Having said that, there was quite a lot of, you know, war going on back then.
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  #945  
Old 02.12.2010, 15:29
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Is that actually the case? I would say disease was probably the biggest killer in 16th century Europe. Would like to see some facts and figures though.
Having said that, there was quite a lot of, you know, war going on back then.
As I understand for the anthropological study and I would have to get hold of my friend who had it, that includes violence linked with economical aggression, in other words, starving people, forcing people to live in conditions that would kill you from cholera and the such.
Only 20% of people died of the sort of natural sort of diseases and causes that we would think about in today's world and pretty much nobody died of "just old age".
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  #946  
Old 02.12.2010, 15:38
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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As I understand for the anthropological study and I would have to get hold of my friend who had it, that includes violence linked with economical aggression, in other words, starving people, forcing people to live in conditions that would kill you from cholera and the such.
Only 20% of people died of the sort of natural sort of diseases and causes that we would think about in today's world and pretty much nobody died of "just old age".
Don't the distinctions become rather wooly if you include such definitions though? "Economic aggression" could also be due to international conflict, which isn't exactly bashing someone over the head with a skillet for the sake of a few shillings now is it?
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  #947  
Old 02.12.2010, 15:46
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Don't the distinctions become rather wooly if you include such definitions though? "Economic aggression" could also be due to international conflict, which isn't exactly bashing someone over the head with a skillet for the sake of a few shillings now is it?
Nope, they both count as violent death as far as I am concerned. Putting somebody in a pen and not feeding them is just as certain a method as bashing them over the head and I don't see much difference if it is an individual, local gang, government or international organisation that is doing the killing.
Maybe "violent deaths" is the wrong phrase to be using here. Maybe a better phrase would be "human caused death", vs. natual death. Human caused death is pretty much considdered a crime in today's Europe but was the norm 500 years ago. Our progress as a society is the primary cause for this, progress in food provision, ethics, generally caring for people, health, politics and all these things have contributed. Punishments are much less today than in those days and I think we can see that prevention is better than punishment and the clear way to prevent crime is to remove the criminal's reason for commiting that crime.

Of course, my personal belief is that those that do then commit crimes that there is not reason to commit should suffer the full extent of what is available. The punishment for something a violent crime that has no provocation or reason should be horrible enough that people just don't do it. Take for an example this "happy slapping" in the UK. That is truly the sign of a sick society where that sort of thing is accepted. Flogging, the stocks and life long hard labour camps would be the sorts of punishments that this sort of crime make me think about! Or course that is my emotional side talking...hehe.
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  #948  
Old 02.12.2010, 16:03
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Why unworthy? Because SVP used very cheap methods and lies...and spent millions
Either they were cheap or they cost millions but you can't have it both ways.
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  #949  
Old 02.12.2010, 16:06
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It is thought that as little as five hundred years ago in Europe 80% of people died violent deaths. I would say today’s figures are significantly down.
True, but I guess that figure includes victims of war and scorched earth policies and their decrease therefore shows that governments are behaving better.
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  #950  
Old 02.12.2010, 16:06
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Either they were cheap or they cost millions but you can't have it both ways.
tell that to the SVP!

For that amount of money they could actually get their facts straight...
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  #951  
Old 02.12.2010, 16:15
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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True, but I guess that figure includes victims of war and scorched earth policies and their decrease therefore shows that governments are behaving better.
Yes, I believe that although things are far from perfect, we must never loose sight of the fact that things are generally but slowly improving, both governments and the way individuals treat each other.
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  #952  
Old 03.12.2010, 10:44
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Any premeditated crime should get you kicked out imho.
This is the same attitude and argument that led to people being transported to Australia for stealing a loaf of bread in Victorian times!
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  #953  
Old 03.12.2010, 10:46
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Although I suppose, that would rather depend on how much was being sold!
Yes. There's a big difference between a major trafficker or someone with a network of dealers and someone who simply sells someone a spliff.
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  #954  
Old 03.12.2010, 12:44
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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that's why I wrote "that's why I see little need of public voting...", for point of issues that is...and I already explained why I think that it does not work when the issues are very complex...

Why unworthy? Because SVP used very cheap methods and lies...and spent millions on their campaign where as the counterpart was more or less invisible...
I assume the counterpart had little money to spend on their counter campaign.
Also very difficult to counter the simple & strong SVP campaign message without getting into complicated discussions which are not easy to put on a poster & might just make things worse.
I suppose the argument that 25% of the crime is committed by (sans papier) foreigners - not 50+% by the 22% with permits could easily backfire.
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  #955  
Old 04.12.2010, 10:59
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

It appears the initiative was largely accepted by Swissinfo readers:

In English, about 90 per cent of the feedback backed the expulsion of foreign criminal, a trend that was mirrored in French, Arabic and German.

The debate was more divided in Spanish and Italian, while there was not one reader who supported the decision in Portuguese.

Source article
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  #956  
Old 04.12.2010, 11:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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For that amount of money they could actually get their facts straight...
But that'a why it is so expensive for them:
- first pay for getting the facts right
- then pay for bending them
- finaly pay for making the bent facts the new truth

That's major work. Hence the millions.
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  #957  
Old 04.12.2010, 11:51
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Although I suppose, that would rather depend on how much was being sold!
I agree with all those who are saying it all depends on how the actual law will look like and since the SVP does not have a majority in parliament the outcome will possibly be similar to the counter proposal. But I would like to remind that it was quiet clear from the beginning that the proposers of the initiative had a very strict interpretation of the new article in mind. Just yesterday Toni Brunner (the SVP party "leader") said, the No to the counter proposal has to be seen as a No to consider the degree of penalty, no ifs or buts..
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  #958  
Old 04.12.2010, 12:21
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Interesting that this vote again highlighted again a wide Roeschtigraben.
Bern was 50/50 and Baselstadt voted against though. Yvan Perrin was asked for the reasons why Le Locle and the Val-de-Travers (where he lives up in a small village in the mountains) where the only Romands areas to vote for the intitiative. His reply was that it is because 'those 2 areas have a much bigger proportion of foreigners and frontaliers'! Which beggars belief, as a/ the inititative has absolutely nothing to do with frontaliers (workers from over the border in France who come to work here daily, mainly in the watch industry) but mainly because in his village, which I visit regularly, I have never ever seen or met a foreigner!
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  #959  
Old 04.12.2010, 12:48
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I agree with all those who are saying it all depends on how the actual law will look like and since the SVP does not have a majority in parliament the outcome will possibly be similar to the counter proposal. But I would like to remind that it was quiet clear from the beginning that the proposers of the initiative had a very strict interpretation of the new article in mind. Just yesterday Toni Brunner (the SVP party "leader") said, the No to the counter proposal has to be seen as a No to consider the degree of penalty, no ifs or buts..
Mr Toni Brunner should read the text of the initiative again ! if he can ....

The "degree of the penalties" is not a matter for definition, what according to the initiative articles 4 and 8 ARE matters for definition is what has to be understood by crimes mentioned.
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  #960  
Old 04.12.2010, 13:07
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Interesting that this vote again highlighted again a wide Roeschtigraben.
Bern was 50/50 and Baselstadt voted against though. Yvan Perrin was asked for the reasons why Le Locle and the Val-de-Travers (where he lives up in a small village in the mountains) where the only Romands areas to vote for the intitiative. His reply was that it is because 'those 2 areas have a much bigger proportion of foreigners and frontaliers'! Which beggars belief, as a/ the inititative has absolutely nothing to do with frontaliers (workers from over the border in France who come to work here daily, mainly in the watch industry) but mainly because in his village, which I visit regularly, I have never ever seen or met a foreigner!
A) Grenzgänger/Frontaliers have nothing to do with the initiative, as they are not domiciled in Switzerland and therefore are not subject to deportation

B) The results of the Initiative have interestingly highlighted, even more so than the results of the Minaret-Initiative, the wide divide between cities and the countryside. If you see that the cities like Winterthur, Zurich (65% no), Bern, Basel and many others have rejected the initiative but were outvoted by their Cantons. There in fact also is another trend, resulting out of this gap, as you could see it in Zurich last weekend, and that is that cities increasingly try to keep decision on the municipal level as far as possible, in order to circumvent the more conservative rests of the Canton. Very often, after something got approved in a city, the outer-suburbs in separate votings decide about the same matter, which means that the Cantons get circumvented by a bit of a "Murks". In the 1970ies, 80ies and 90ies, there was lot of talk that the old Stadt-Land adversity had become a matter of the past, which apparently is wrong

C) As the boss of the "Young Socialists" Mr Cédric Wermuth says, the SVP has proven that you by insisting on your points over the years can achieve a lot. He therefore, is succeeding to lead the SP away from the centre, which is a bit crowded here, but towards traditional Social Democratic positions. He quite in accordance with the SVP leaders, emphasizes the importance of meeting average people "on the road", as such inpromptu meetings in his view are more important than speaking on the "Arena SFDRS"
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