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  #81  
Old 16.11.2010, 15:58
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Well DR, I am definitely NOT. Do you really think that if this initiative goes through it will help Switzerland's standing in the world, both politically and from the business point of view. Do you still believe Switzerland can stand alone, like Kings of the Castle with their Morgartens?
To be honest, I don't think it will make the slightest bit of difference to Switzerland's economic or political standing.
France recently expelled 1500 Roma, is anyone still talking about that? Granted, France have plenty of more pressing internal issues at the moment, so it would have slipped off the radar somewhat. The UK have looked into introducing a similar initiative (expelling criminals, not Roma!), but that was past news, they're all talking about Will and Kate now.
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  #82  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:10
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I don't think it would affect Switzerland's standing in the world, because a lot of other countries already practice it.
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  #83  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:14
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I'm not sure if the criminal is sent back prior to or after they serve their sentence. Surely, the interest of justice has to be served. No use sending someone back scott free..
If one aim is to keep the Swiss prison population low (to avoid building more prisons) then expelling criminals without them serving time is the only way to achieve that aim.

By the way the criminals are not expelled for life - only for between 5 or 15 years (quote - "mit einem Einreiseverbot von 5 – 15 Jahren zu belegen")

There are more details in the web site http://www.ausschaffungsinitiative.c...ative_lang.pdf

It is not clear to me if these details are formally part of the Ausschaffungsinitiative being voted on or are simply supporting arguments which are not formally part of the Ausschaffungsinitiative.

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Actually, the initiative and counter-proposal are quite clear about the types of crimes this covers. Petty crime is not amongst them.
If this proposal achieves enough votes to be successful then changing the definitions of the types of crimes covered would simply be a stroke of a pen; not requiring a new referendum?
Anyway the SVP left the door open to these definitions by writing "Andere Gewaltdelikte wie" i.e. other violent crimes such as....
I am sure the definition, after the referendum, of what are violent crimes will be the subject of much debate starting with "all crimes are violent!"; same as the dangerous dogs debate in Zürich after the referendum on control of "dangerous dogs" where one group argued - "take no chances; all dogs are dangerous".
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  #84  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:20
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Can't remember who it was, possible Blocher, stated that people would not be repatriated to countries with extreme internal issues, such as Somalia. It's not entirely cut and dried in the slightest.
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  #85  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:24
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I thought as much
Doesn't look like you think very much at all
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  #86  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:24
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I wonder if a solution of simply denying citizenship to criminals is not enough? Is that not already the case here? I mean if you don't have a job surely you can't stay here and if you have been arrested and convicted of a serious crime, surely your employer would get rid of you? Or am I just being really stupid?
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  #87  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:25
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If one aim is to keep the Swiss prison population low (to avoid building more prisons) then expelling criminals without them serving time is the only way to achieve that aim.
Read up on the criminal activity in Geneva's Paquis area.

There is a tendency for criminals to behave, well... like criminals... meaning they repeat their offenses. So, such an initiative would be perfectly suitable for a repeat offender and could affect prison population.




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If this proposal achieves enough votes to be successful then changing the definitions of the types of crimes covered would simply be a stroke of a pen; not requiring a new referendum?
Anyway the SVP left the door open to these definitions by writing "Andere Gewaltdelikte wie" i.e. other violent crimes such as....
I am sure the definition, after the referendum, of what are violent crimes will be the subject of much debate starting with "all crimes are violent!"; same as the dangerous dogs debate in Zürich after the referendum on control of "dangerous dogs" where one group argued - "take no chances; all dogs are dangerous".

I think it will still need to go through judicial evaluation, and evaluated against any particular international treaties. I'm not sure, but I think such initiatives may have priority over international treaties. I imagine this initiative, if it passes, may not be implementable 100% of the time. But we're just voters, and not tasked to consider the implementation of it.
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Old 16.11.2010, 16:26
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Can't remember who it was, possible Blocher, stated that people would not be repatriated to countries with extreme internal issues, such as Somalia. It's not entirely cut and dried in the slightest.

Right, because that is actually illegal. You can't deport someone to a place where they face certain death, for example.
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  #89  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:27
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

It's not entirely cut and dried in the slightest. All criminals should be made welcome in Switzerland



when did PG write this? Don't be so ridiculous, those of us against the initiative obviously do not wish this to be the case.
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  #90  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I wonder if a solution of simply denying citizenship to criminals is not enough? Is that not already the case here? I mean if you don't have a job surely you can't stay here and if you have been arrested and convicted of a serious crime, surely your employer would get rid of you? Or am I just being really stupid?
Depends on your permit. C-permit holders can stay indefinitely, irrespective of their employment status.
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  #91  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:29
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It's not entirely cut and dried in the slightest. All criminals should be made welcome in Switzerland



when did PG write this? Don't be so ridiculous, those of us against the initiative obviously do not wish this to be the case.
Don't worry about him Odile, he's just a Troll.
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  #92  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It's not entirely cut and dried in the slightest. All criminals should be made welcome in Switzerland



when did PG write this? Don't be so ridiculous, those of us against the initiative obviously do not wish this to be the case.
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Don't worry about him Odile, he's just a Troll.


That kind of mis-quoting is ground for banning.

Mods! Please deport him!

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  #93  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:32
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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That kind of mis-quoting is ground for banning.

Mods! Please deport him!

Our wish is their command
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  #94  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:33
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I have started a new thread "Vote for foreigners" it refers to this website, http://www.baloti.ch/?lang=en
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  #95  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:40
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I think it will still need to go through judicial evaluation, and evaluated against any particular international treaties. I'm not sure, but I think such initiatives may have priority over international treaties. I imagine this initiative, if it passes, may not be implementable 100% of the time. But we're just voters, and not tasked to consider the implementation of it.
so you don't think the automatism and the inclusion of economic crimes are a good thing. Has the chicken any feathers left?
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Old 16.11.2010, 16:43
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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so you don't think the automatism and the inclusion of economic crimes are a good thing. Has the chicken any feathers left?
I just said I don't like the inclusion of economic crimes in the initiative.

But.... I don't like crime and criminals even more.
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  #97  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:43
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Depends on your permit. C-permit holders can stay indefinitely, irrespective of their employment status.
Ah, then perhaps it is as simple as revoking C-permits if a serious crime is committed?
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  #98  
Old 16.11.2010, 16:46
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Right, because that is actually illegal. You can't deport someone to a place where they face certain death, for example.
Um - there is no such thing as "actually illegal"
For example
You have the results of Swiss Referendums
You have national Laws
You have Bi-lateral & other International agreements
&&&

They are all slightly, or more than slightly, different from each other & all in their own way are legal.

Under the Auss... iniatitive the criminal will have no right of appeal so how can he/she formally tell anybody that they face certain death when expelled?
That is why there is usually an appeal process to review such issues.
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Old 16.11.2010, 16:55
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Um - there is no such thing as "actually illegal"
For example
You have the results of Swiss Referendums
You have national Laws
You have Bi-lateral & other International agreements
&&&

They are all slightly, or more than slightly, different from each other & all in their own way are legal.

Under the Auss... iniatitive the criminal will have no right of appeal so how can he/she formally tell anybody that they face certain death when expelled?
That is why there is usually an appeal process to review such issues.

That's a common issue with all the countries who have laws deporting criminals. There are lots of countries that practice it. I doubt Switzerland will be doing anything more extreme than what other countries commonly practice. I think there may be international human rights laws about deporting someone to somewhere where they face considerable harm.

There are International Human Rights laws.
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Old 16.11.2010, 16:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I still restate my previous question which was not answered and I am facinated to find out why:

Why is the issue to kicking criminals that are not citizens of a country (possibly not even EU citizens) out of the country (any country) if they commit a crime that the citizens decide it is not acceptable for them to remain constantly made into a racial issue?

As far as I can see it should have nothing to do with race, colour, creed, sex, sexuality, hair colour, cheese preference or anything else other than the crime committed.
You bring up an excellent point! Many will avoid answering you because in reality-there is absolutely "nothing wrong" with a country kicking out criminals who are not citizens". Its like having a guest in your home. The guest steals from you repeatedly. You eventually ask them to leave. There is nothing wrong with that.
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