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  #981  
Old 29.06.2011, 14:20
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Looks like another way for govt agencies to alienate foreigners.. Everyone should be treated the same regardless of nationality.

It always starts with its only the serious criminals.. then it moves on to the minor criminals.. then continues on to...

Im glad in French CH this probably would get bounced.

These people think that swiss is great.. what they dont realise is its great because our tax dollars make it great.. with out us the place would collapse.
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  #982  
Old 29.06.2011, 19:41
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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As expected it is proving very difficult to draft the legislation resulting from the vote to expel foreign criminals; see report in Swissinfo below. There are 4 alternative proposals from the committee; 3 are majority supported & one much tougher one that is SVP supported.
Not surprisingly even the majority supported proposed rules are much, much tougher than many peope here forecast.
For example for the majority a minor crime that has a 6 month sentence is sufficient grounds to expel a foreign "criminal".
For the SVP supported proposal any sentence (1 day?) is sufficient grounds to expel a foreign criminal.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials...l?cid=30557476
...that's direct "democracy" in action...what a beeping joke...smells pre WW2...
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  #983  
Old 05.07.2011, 14:06
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Tagenanzeiger reported this today:

http://translate.google.se/translate...ory%2F28551985

so, if somebody is molesting my son or wife, and I hit him back I will get deported! Also SVP admits in the article that if a neo-nazi attacks a foreigner and they hit back they will get deported...so it's green light for neo-nazis to start hitting foreigners, they got immunity!!!


YAY FOR SWISS "DEMOCRACY"!!!
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  #984  
Old 05.07.2011, 14:22
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Tagenanzeiger reported this today:

http://translate.google.se/translate...ory%2F28551985

so, if somebody is molesting my son or wife, and I hit him back I will get deported! Also SVP admits in the article that if a neo-nazi attacks a foreigner and they hit back they will get deported...so it's green light for neo-nazis to start hitting foreigners, they got immunity!!!


YAY FOR SWISS "DEMOCRACY"!!!
What's the problem?
Where did it say that neo-nazis who hit foreigners will not be prosecuted?
In fact if the neo-nazi is a foreigner they will be deported.
It is against the law to hit people, except in self defence.
If somebody molests your son or wife and you go over the next day and hit them that's not self-defence because its premeditated. If you are there when it happens and your reaction is immediate and proportionate to the threat, then that is self defence and any court would acquit you.
You will not be deported because you do something but you wil be deported when found guilty of a crime deserving deportation.
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  #985  
Old 05.07.2011, 14:25
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Er... if you actually read the article it says self-defense is allowed, counter-attacking not allowed. This is already the case, and we don't see roving gangs beating up foreigners.

Little less scaremongering, please? What is legal and what is illegal has not changed here, only the possible consequences.

If you are really worried about people taking random swings at you to get you deported, then please take some time and familiarize yourself with Swiss self-defense laws so you will know where the line is. Hitting back is justifiable self-defense in some circumstances, not in all.
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  #986  
Old 05.07.2011, 14:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

And anyway, the article does say what will happen but what the SVP is demanding.

The SVP cannot possibly get their way in all points. There will be a compromise of some sort.
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  #987  
Old 05.07.2011, 14:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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What's the problem?
Where did it say that neo-nazis who hit foreigners will not be prosecuted?
In fact if the neo-nazi is a foreigner they will be deported.
It is against the law to hit people, except in self defence.
If somebody molests your son or wife and you go over the next day and hit them that's not self-defence because its premeditated. If you are there when it happens and your reaction is immediate and proportionate to the threat, then that is self defence and any court would acquit you.
You will not be deported because you do something but you wil be deported when found guilty of a crime deserving deportation.
About "proportionate to the threat" - that is always the difficult part - I see a ZFC supporter hit a guy in Zürich who fell on the floor & banged his head - is now disabled.
The ZFC supporter is now in jail.

I know this is a case of attack not self defense; I just wanted to illustrate the difficulty of being "proportionate"
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  #988  
Old 05.07.2011, 16:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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What's the problem?
Where did it say that neo-nazis who hit foreigners will not be prosecuted?
In fact if the neo-nazi is a foreigner they will be deported.
It is against the law to hit people, except in self defence.
If somebody molests your son or wife and you go over the next day and hit them that's not self-defence because its premeditated. If you are there when it happens and your reaction is immediate and proportionate to the threat, then that is self defence and any court would acquit you.
You will not be deported because you do something but you wil be deported when found guilty of a crime deserving deportation.
...yes BUT, since Swiss are flawless per definition here in switzerland means that when it comes to interactions with foreigners you will be guilty i.e. defending yourself = counter attacking...
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  #989  
Old 05.07.2011, 16:33
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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And anyway, the article does say what will happen but what the SVP is demanding.

The SVP cannot possibly get their way in all points. There will be a compromise of some sort.
...that's what people said 1930...
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  #990  
Old 05.07.2011, 16:38
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Er... if you actually read the article it says self-defense is allowed, counter-attacking not allowed. This is already the case, and we don't see roving gangs beating up foreigners.

Little less scaremongering, please? What is legal and what is illegal has not changed here, only the possible consequences.

If you are really worried about people taking random swings at you to get you deported, then please take some time and familiarize yourself with Swiss self-defense laws so you will know where the line is. Hitting back is justifiable self-defense in some circumstances, not in all.
yes because when you're attacked you start remembering what you are allowed to do and not...if somebody attacks somebody he has to suit himself...that's what is applicable in general in Switzerland...SELBER SCHULD!!!!! so it should be applicable here also...

sorry, but the brown shirts SVP are the ones who are doing the scaremongering...
- drinking somebody's else beer? = DEPORTATION!
- defending yourself against nazis!= DEPORTATION!
- driving 5km/h too fast? = DEPORTATION!

it will be a very nice initiative, it will also be a part of the new fancy broschure...DO AND DON'Ts in SWITZERLAND!
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  #991  
Old 05.07.2011, 16:40
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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...yes BUT, since Swiss are flawless per definition here in switzerland means that when it comes to interactions with foreigners you will be guilty i.e. defending yourself = counter attacking...
when you run out of facts then ...

Do you have even one example of this ever having occurred?

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......that's what people said 1930...
That's called Godwin.

It's what people do when they run out of arguments.

But seeing you have raised it, may I remind you that mr Hitler was an Austrian. had this law existed in 1930 the Germans could have deported him for starting a brawl in the Hofbraushaus, for hitting other nazis and for stealing beer. The history of the world may have been quite different
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  #992  
Old 05.07.2011, 16:48
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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when you run out of facts then ...

Do you have even one example of this ever having occurred?



That's called Godwin.

It's what people do when they run out of arguments.
I don't need any arguements I just red the scary article from the Tagesanzeiger...there are no secrets what SVP wants...they won an initiative based on scaremongering, so they will surely get this through also...

If you wish to close your eyes of what is going on, it's up to you...if you have not seen the development for the last 10 years, you were not here 10 years ago...if you are a Swiss, I rest my case...your opinion is not valid...
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  #993  
Old 05.07.2011, 17:07
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I don't need any arguements I just red the scary article from the Tagesanzeiger...there are no secrets what SVP wants...they won an initiative based on scaremongering, so they will surely get this through also...

If you wish to close your eyes of what is going on, it's up to you...if you have not seen the development for the last 10 years, you were not here 10 years ago...if you are a Swiss, I rest my case...your opinion is not valid...
I'm not Swiss but I've been here longer than 10 years. I see nothing scary in the Tagesanzeiger article. In fact I think it's wonderful to live in a country where laws get made in this way rather than behind closed doors.

Personally I'm not a criminal. I don't beat people up and I don't steal beer and I frankly don't have much sympathy for those who do. I have never seen a Nazi in Switzerland and this may have to do with the fact that the Nazi party was banned and dissolved in 1945 and henceforth ceased to have any membership. I was born quite a bit after that and as I don't have a time machine or play Wolfenstein I'm not really concerned about meeting one. I have studied and observed the Swiss political arena for almost 20 years but in contrast to you I don't actually know with certainty what the SVP want. In fact I don't believe they want anything but that they are a collection of individuals some of whom may want something, as is the case with the other parties also. I do think they scaremonger sometimes, and they are definitely better at campaigning than any of the other parties, but I don't think it is right to respond to scaremongering with more scaremongering the way you seem to be doing.
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  #994  
Old 05.07.2011, 18:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I'm not Swiss but I've been here longer than 10 years. I see nothing scary in the Tagesanzeiger article. In fact I think it's wonderful to live in a country where laws get made in this way rather than behind closed doors.

Personally I'm not a criminal. I don't beat people up and I don't steal beer and I frankly don't have much sympathy for those who do. I have never seen a Nazi in Switzerland and this may have to do with the fact that the Nazi party was banned and dissolved in 1945 and henceforth ceased to have any membership. I was born quite a bit after that and as I don't have a time machine or play Wolfenstein I'm not really concerned about meeting one. I have studied and observed the Swiss political arena for almost 20 years but in contrast to you I don't actually know with certainty what the SVP want. In fact I don't believe they want anything but that they are a collection of individuals some of whom may want something, as is the case with the other parties also. I do think they scaremonger sometimes, and they are definitely better at campaigning than any of the other parties, but I don't think it is right to respond to scaremongering with more scaremongering the way you seem to be doing.
great resumè...

so if a law in Switzerland would pass for cutting of your hand for e.g. stealing? you still think that it would make sense? (yes / no answer)

Direct "democracy" like in Switzerland makes ONLY sense if everyone was "forced" to vote...1.4M people in Switzerland voted yes to this initiative...1.3M voted against...50-60% didn't vote at all...I can not see anything democratic in this...it's total BS and nothing wonderful about it...

I happy for you that you have not been influenced by SVP scaremongering, that's not my case...ever since we moved to countryside some years ago, and since the SVP propaganda started we have definately been influenced by this...it's really scaring when you hear people talking in Volg..."Ausländer-that...Ausländer-this..."

The general popultion of Switzerland has a more negative view on foreigners now then when I arrived here...thanks to the SVP propaganda...
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  #995  
Old 05.07.2011, 22:50
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Tagenanzeiger reported this today:

http://translate.google.se/translate...ory%2F28551985

so, if somebody is molesting my son or wife, and I hit him back I will get deported! Also SVP admits in the article that if a neo-nazi attacks a foreigner and they hit back they will get deported...so it's green light for neo-nazis to start hitting foreigners, they got immunity!!!


YAY FOR SWISS "DEMOCRACY"!!!
No, you will NOT. And a foreigner hitting back at getting attacked by a Neo-Nazi is NOT to get deported! And NO, the Neo-Nazis have NOT got immunity ! not at all

And a thieve stealing a beer is not to get deported either. You mention the SVP. They also have to keep to their words btw.
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Old 05.07.2011, 22:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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yes because when you're attacked you start remembering what you are allowed to do and not...if somebody attacks somebody he has to suit himself...that's what is applicable in general in Switzerland...SELBER SCHULD!!!!! so it should be applicable here also...

sorry, but the brown shirts SVP are the ones who are doing the scaremongering...
- drinking somebody's else beer? = DEPORTATION!
- defending yourself against nazis!= DEPORTATION!
- driving 5km/h too fast? = DEPORTATION!

it will be a very nice initiative, it will also be a part of the new fancy broschure...DO AND DON'Ts in SWITZERLAND!

In case they launch such an initiative, they will lose
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  #997  
Old 05.07.2011, 23:07
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I don't need any arguements I just red the scary article from the Tagesanzeiger...there are no secrets what SVP wants...they won an initiative based on scaremongering, so they will surely get this through also...

If you wish to close your eyes of what is going on, it's up to you...if you have not seen the development for the last 10 years, you were not here 10 years ago...if you are a Swiss, I rest my case...your opinion is not valid...
A) in the Tages Anzeiger they wanted to make matters clear
B) no, the SVP won the last initiative, but will not win an extreme one
C) the T-A exactly wanted to show people the threat

the development over the past 50 years has shown liberalisations, progress and .more tolerance but of course some setbacks had to be accepted. The SVP lost most of the public votes in the past 20 years fairly clearly while the SP won most votes. BOTH parties had to suffer defeats when they went too far.

Let's be clear, the SVP is absolutely just like the "Deutsch-Nationale Partei" of the 1920ies and 30ies, they only miss a Mr Adolf Hitler. THIS was the reason why the T-A so clearly warned against this threat, as a threat it is.

You may have realized that the SVP failed to get a single one into the Zürich City government, one of the more important political bodies in this country. You may have realized that the SVP, thanks to some heavy "naturalisations", lost its grip on the city-government of Opfikon-Glattbrugg. The latest union-wide polls show that the SVP is to LOSE shares in the federal parliaments at best and stay where they are at worst.
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  #998  
Old 05.07.2011, 23:14
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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In case they launch such an initiative, they will lose
I agree SVP would lose an initiative based on tougher enforcement of deport laws.
They only won the last one because they were deliberately vague about the level of crime required to qualify for deportation.

For example from this very thread
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As per the article, serious crimes only ,as your friend states, and the evil benefit fraud...(Cuz that's worse than murder , right ?)
I do not believe a majority would vote for deportation for minor crimes.
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  #999  
Old 05.07.2011, 23:42
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I agree SVP would lose an initiative based on tougher enforcement of deport laws.
They only won the last one because they were deliberately vague about the level of crime required to qualify for deportation.

For example from this very thread


I do not believe a majority would vote for deportation for minor crimes.
Yes, sure, but "Usueco" is right and the T-A and most of the media is right when warning against the threat of the march into totalitarianism. This is where the German media of the 1920ies failed . And where the democratic parties of the Weimar-Republik failed.
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Old 06.07.2011, 00:14
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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In case they launch such an initiative, they will lose
...could only hope......I just don't see any counter balance to SVP anymore, it's like "the other parties" has given up...sometimes you hear that SP says "something", but they also stated that there too many foreigners now...but in general "the other parties" seems to have lost their way...and it's election this year and the "foreign-hating-bandwagon" just left the station! CHOO CHOO!!!

...of course I am exaggerating, It's just that some things are quite similar to 80 years ago...a minority right wing party with some very strong individuals lead people that their way is the right way, and then use the propaganda machine to realize it...if you don't see the similarities...

But if the BIGGEST party in Switzerland gave their picture of the realizing of initiative in the TA, I wouldn't swipe it away just like that...I remember what people said on this forum before the initiative...
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