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  #1001  
Old 06.07.2011, 01:23
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yes, sure, but "Usueco" is right and the T-A and most of the media is right when warning against the threat of the march into totalitarianism. This is where the German media of the 1920ies failed . And where the democratic parties of the Weimar-Republik failed.
If ever anti-democratic and totalitarian tendencies arise again, they won't necessarily been from the far right, they won't necessarily have a swastika flag and their leader won't necessarily have a silly little moustache or be an aquarelle painter from Braunau am Inn. This is why the media etc are barking up the wrong tree in my opinion, especially in Germany where precisely those symptoms are outlawed and countless docmentaries are screened on TV about all the things the nazis did but hardly ever anything about how they got away with it or the underlying philosophy of totalitarianism. They would probably ban little Austrian men with moustaches from becoming aquarelle painters if they could, but be blind to the real causes. So the media like to have a go a the SVP because on the surface there are similarities such as being tough on crime and having posters with red rats (and what a pity that Blocher doesn't paint aquarelles) but are missing out on the fact that the currently biggest threat to democracy does not come from aquarelle painters but from undemocratic and unnaccountable organisations such as the EU.
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  #1002  
Old 06.07.2011, 01:53
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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...could only hope......I just don't see any counter balance to SVP anymore, it's like "the other parties" has given up...sometimes you hear that SP says "something", but they also stated that there too many foreigners now...but in general "the other parties" seems to have lost their way...and it's election this year and the "foreign-hating-bandwagon" just left the station! CHOO CHOO!!!

...of course I am exaggerating, It's just that some things are quite similar to 80 years ago...a minority right wing party with some very strong individuals lead people that their way is the right way, and then use the propaganda machine to realize it...if you don't see the similarities...

But if the BIGGEST party in Switzerland gave their picture of the realizing of initiative in the TA, I wouldn't swipe it away just like that...I remember what people said on this forum before the initiative...
-- all the other parties had to take the "foreigner matter" into their considerations finally as they should have done long ago, and neglected the matter for far too long.

-- no, the SP has NOT said that there are too many foreigners. You should abstain from distorting positions. What they said is different.

--- the "foreigners-hating bandwagon" is just your imagination

--- I quite strongly see the similarities between Mr Christoph Blocher (a Secondo of German origin btw.) and Mr Adolf Hitler (another Secondo in Germany of Austrian origin)

-- But again, it was the T-A who showed what some or many of the SVPlers would like to have. Clearly showing to its readers the dangers
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  #1003  
Old 06.07.2011, 01:58
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If ever anti-democratic and totalitarian tendencies arise again, they won't necessarily been from the far right, they won't necessarily have a swastika flag and their leader won't necessarily have a silly little moustache or be an aquarelle painter from Braunau am Inn. This is why the media etc are barking up the wrong tree in my opinion, especially in Germany where precisely those symptoms are outlawed and countless docmentaries are screened on TV about all the things the nazis did but hardly ever anything about how they got away with it or the underlying philosophy of totalitarianism. They would probably ban little Austrian men with moustaches from becoming aquarelle painters if they could, but be blind to the real causes. So the media like to have a go a the SVP because on the surface there are similarities such as being tough on crime and having posters with red rats (and what a pity that Blocher doesn't paint aquarelles) but are missing out on the fact that the currently biggest threat to democracy does not come from aquarelle painters but from undemocratic and unnaccountable organisations such as the EU.
In the 1970ies the danger of totalitarianism was clearly more from the left, but in the 1960ies it was clearly from the right (Mr Schwarzenbach) and so it is now again
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  #1004  
Old 06.07.2011, 10:26
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I find this talk of totalitarianism and dictatorship quite tiresome to be honest, the SVP for all its faults is the one party that staunchly backs direct democracy and is against any form of power concentration, be it in Bern or Brussels. It's as if when you're standing on the right (as in, left) side of politics you can throw around silly terms with impunity and just hope some of it sticks. I know it might come as a surprise but both FDP and SVP are actually surprisingly heterogenous parties. Case in point: about half of SVP party members voted against(!) the ban of minarets. The SVP has a very well oiled marketing machinery and strategists that jump on any occasion to make a mark or discredit other parties but there's still quite a range of opinions within the party. Godwin still applies.

About the implementation of the initiative: Both parties (judiciary and SVP) are unwilling to compromise at the moment, but the current situation could be defused by capping some of the more controversial points (asylum abuse) and deporting everyone that has to spend at least 6 months in prison, which would affect about 16'000 foreigners currently residing in Switzerland according to the judiciary. You don't get 6 months of prison for stealing an apple, starting a fight or ticking the wrong box at the asylum request so I'd find that solution quite alright.
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  #1005  
Old 20.09.2011, 16:27
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Interesting European court decision today; if this sets a precedent then deporting criminals could be difficult anywhere in Europe...
"The (UK) Home Office's ability to deport individuals who have committed crimes may be curtailed by a European court judgment banning the removal of a Nigerian man convicted of rape.
The Strasbourg court ruled that the 24-year-old man, known as AA, would have his right to family life "violated" if he was sent back to Nigeria. He lives with his mother, a nurse, in England.
In its finding, the court declared: "The applicant's deportation from the United Kingdom would be disproportionate to the legitimate aim of the 'prevention of disorder and crime' and would therefore not be necessary in a democratic society."
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  #1006  
Old 20.09.2011, 16:37
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Interesting European court decision today; if this sets a precedent then deporting criminals could be difficult anywhere in Europe...
"The (UK) Home Office's ability to deport individuals who have committed crimes may be curtailed by a European court judgment banning the removal of a Nigerian man convicted of rape.
The Strasbourg court ruled that the 24-year-old man, known as AA, would have his right to family life "violated" if he was sent back to Nigeria. He lives with his mother, a nurse, in England.
In its finding, the court declared: "The applicant's deportation from the United Kingdom would be disproportionate to the legitimate aim of the 'prevention of disorder and crime' and would therefore not be necessary in a democratic society."
Another sound reason for leaving the EU.
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  #1007  
Old 20.09.2011, 17:03
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Another sound reason for leaving the EU.
The European Court is not the same thing as the European Union.
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  #1008  
Old 20.09.2011, 17:09
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The European Court is not the same thing as the European Union.
No, but it is administered by the EU:

"The European Court of Justice (officially the Court of Justice), is the highest court in the European Union in matters of European Union law. As a part of the Court of Justice of the European Union institution it is tasked with interpreting EU law and ensuring its equal application across all EU member states"
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  #1009  
Old 20.09.2011, 17:22
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

You miss the point guys; Switzerland has subscribed to all this

European Court of Human Rights monitors the contracting states’ compliance with any obligations arising from the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR).

The European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) guarantees the fundamental rights, such as the right to life, the prohibition of torture, the right to liberty and security, the right to a fair trial, the right to respect for private and family life, freedom of expression, and the prohibition of discrimination. The Convention was opened for signature in Rome on 4 November 1950. Switzerland ratified it in 1974.


The Convention is supplemented by various Additional Protocols, which extend the catalogue of protected rights (Additional Protocols 1, 4, 6, 7, 12 and 13). Switzerland has signed Protocol No. 1 and ratified the following Protocols:
  • Protocol No. 6 of 28 April 1983 concerning the abolition of the death penalty, entered into force for Switzerland on 13 October 1987
  • Protocol No. 7 of 22 November 1984, entered into force for Switzerland on 1 November 1988
  • Protocol No. 13 of 3 May 2002 concerning the abolition of the death penalty in all circumstances, entered into force for Switzerland on 1 July 2003
Swiss government is represented before the Court by the International Affairs Division of the Federal Office of Justice. Appeal forms for the Court, as well as an information sheet, are available from the Federal Office of Justice or from the Court

Last edited by marton; 20.09.2011 at 17:28. Reason: just to make it clearer
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  #1010  
Old 20.09.2011, 17:23
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No, but it is administered by the EU:

"The European Court of Justice (officially the Court of Justice), is the highest court in the European Union in matters of European Union law. As a part of the Court of Justice of the European Union institution it is tasked with interpreting EU law and ensuring its equal application across all EU member states"
The European Court of Justice is not the same as the European Court of Human Rights.
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  #1011  
Old 20.09.2011, 17:41
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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The European Court of Justice is not the same as the European Court of Human Rights.
OK fair enough, but the quote above does not specify which court, just "a European Court". And, as far as I can tell, the Coalition (well the Tory bits of it anyway) are quite keen to unsubscribe from the ECHR.

Even so, it's still bloody Europeans interfering in British domestic policy..

(Rant rant rant, fume fume, grumble grumble)
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  #1012  
Old 20.09.2011, 17:52
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Even so, it's still bloody Europeans interfering in British domestic policy..

(Rant rant rant, fume fume, grumble grumble)
Where's the Duke of Wellington when you need him, eh?
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  #1013  
Old 20.09.2011, 17:55
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Where's the Duke of Wellington when you need him, eh?
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  #1014  
Old 20.09.2011, 17:57
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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OK fair enough, but the quote above does not specify which court, just "a European Court". And, as far as I can tell, the Coalition (well the Tory bits of it anyway) are quite keen to unsubscribe from the ECHR.

Even so, it's still bloody Europeans interfering in British domestic policy..

(Rant rant rant, fume fume, grumble grumble)
My bad it is/was "European court of human rights"
unsubscribe?
I think it is like Hotel California
You can check out but you can't leave........
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  #1015  
Old 20.09.2011, 17:58
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Where's the Duke of Wellington when you need him, eh?
That was the favourite pub of the UBS trader who is claimed to have lost some billions?

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  #1016  
Old 20.09.2011, 18:06
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I'm just curious as to what would happen if the Govt. just said "screw you" to the ECHR and deported the guy anyway? What are they going to do about it? Fine them? Arrest Dave?
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  #1017  
Old 20.09.2011, 18:08
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I'm just curious as to what would happen if the Govt. just said "screw you" to the ECHR and deported the guy anyway? What are they going to do about it? Fine them? Arrest Dave?
If I recall correctly, Belgrade and Novi Sad had the crap bombed out of them in the name of "human rights", so who knows?

Perhaps we should encourage Dave to find out...
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  #1018  
Old 20.09.2011, 18:50
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I'm just curious as to what would happen if the Govt. just said "screw you" to the ECHR and deported the guy anyway? What are they going to do about it? Fine them? Arrest Dave?
Produce another ton or two of reports at the cost of several million Euros and destroying several hectares or irreplaceable rain forest to harvest the paper while in the process driving some hitherto undiscovered tribe of indigeneous Amazonians off their land and to alcohol. But no sacrifice is too great for protecting human rights, is it?

Others call it doing nothing. But they miss the subtelties.
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  #1019  
Old 20.09.2011, 18:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If I recall correctly, Belgrade and Novi Sad had the crap bombed out of them in the name of "human rights", so who knows?

Perhaps we should encourage Dave to find out...
No, they were the bad guys. We are the good guys. That's a totally different setup.

We invented this human rights cr*p and by golly we will decide when it is and when it isn't applicable.
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  #1020  
Old 20.09.2011, 23:41
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I'm just curious as to what would happen if the Govt. just said "screw you" to the ECHR and deported the guy anyway? What are they going to do about it? Fine them? Arrest Dave?
Well the UK Govt signed up to this so they would be in breach of contract.
I suppose they were happy when other countries were found to be failing in human rights BUT not "in my back yard"!
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