What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted? - Page 6

#**101** 16.11.2010, 17:01

	Quote:
	and not come straight back here, or the UK, France, wherever - as you well know borders are very easy to cross now. Our local border post is hardly ever manned theses days, and never at night + patrols very rare. My main concern if what would happen to their families - criminals do have wives, children and elderly parents too. Switzerland will be further estranged from the EU and risk the 1999 reciprocal agreements as soon as the programme kicks into place. Yes many from the extreme right in other countries will envy us - but for the majority, Switzerland will become the example Numero Uno of xenophobia, and a laughing stock too. As a born Swiss, I really hope this won't come to pass, but sadly it seems, the writing is on the wall.

Not really. Switzerland is setting an example that "a country has a right to implement their laws"...thats it..period. For such small country, Switzerland has lots of respect from around the world. That won't change...

PaddyG · #**102** 16.11.2010, 17:06

	Quote:
	Not really. Switzerland is setting an example that "a country has a right to implement their laws"...thats it..period....

And something, sadly, which is happening less and less in the EU

Gastro Gnome · #**103** 16.11.2010, 17:12

	Quote:	Phos
	That's just as well. I don't think anyone is expectating 0 crime rate from this. But any less is better, as far as I'm concerned.

At any cost?

It's not like Switzerland's suffering from a crimewave is it?

Gastro Gnome · #**104** 16.11.2010, 17:13

	Quote:	Phos
	Not really. A lot of crimes are committed by repeat offenders. And Switzerland has a reputation as being lax on crime and punishment. Prison cells here are said to be somehwat comfortable. So the point is deterrent.

And yet Switzerland already has a comparitively low rate of crime.

#**105** 16.11.2010, 17:19

	Quote:	Gastro Gnome
	At any cost? It's not like Switzerland's suffering from a crimewave is it?

	Quote:	Gastro Gnome
	And yet Switzerland already has a comparitively low rate of crime.

There has been a steady increase in the past decade, starting from the early 1990s. It has changed Switzerland's civil landscape. It is enough for me and perhaps the majority to say we don't like where it is headed, and something ought to be done about it.

jj muge · #**106** 16.11.2010, 17:26

	Quote:	colinwheeler
	So what I don't get is that so many countries around the world kick somebody out of thier country if that person is not a citizen and commits a crime, often after having them spend their jail time in that country. Why does it become an issue of race here in Europe and in Switzerland. This is a criminal vs. law abiding resident issue, right?

	Quote:
	You bring up an excellent point! Many will avoid answering you because in reality-there is absolutely "nothing wrong" with a country kicking out criminals who are not citizens". Its like having a guest in your home. The guest steals from you repeatedly. You eventually ask them to leave. There is nothing wrong with that.

I don't think so..apples and pineapples... The "outrage" about racism/xenophobia is targeting the actual svp campaign and statements of party members, not so much the issue itself (unlike minaret ban). The initiative has enough weaknesses to catch on.

#**107** 16.11.2010, 17:32

	Quote:	jj muge
	The initiative has enough weaknesses to catch on.

That is actually quite true. The government allowed this initiative to go on knowing that some of it may go against International Law. I find that suspicious.

Polls show majority support for the initiative and the counter proposal. But the minaret vote shows that the Swiss are not very good at polling. So it could go either way.

As for me, I'm okay with either the initiative or the counter-proposal being implemented.

I love Swiss democracy.

It's even better than voting in the US.

Gastro Gnome · #**108** 16.11.2010, 17:32

	Quote:	Phos
	There has been a steady increase in the past decade, starting from the early 1990s. It has changed Switzerland's civil landscape. It is enough for me and perhaps the majority to say we don't like where it is headed, and something ought to be done about it.

Which crime stats are you using? Do you have a reference?

#**109** 16.11.2010, 17:34

	Quote:	Gastro Gnome
	Which crime stats are you using? Do you have a reference?

I mainly use my personal experience for that. I frequented Switzerland as far back as the early 90s. It was a lot more civilized back then.

Gastro Gnome · #**110** 16.11.2010, 17:37

	Quote:	Phos
	I mainly use my personal experience for that. I frequented Switzerland as far back as the early 90s. It was a lot more civilized back then.

I don't really trust anecdotal evidence, so if you could provide some stats instead that would be really useful.

Ah . . . just found some . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland

(The table there is from official Swiss stats . . . it should be noted that that's convictions not crimes though)

Yep . . . rising, but still very low by international standards.

BTW: I'm unclear on the details. Will financial white-collar criminals and those convicted of driving offences be affected?

jj muge · #**111** 16.11.2010, 17:41

	Quote:	Phos
	That is actually quite true. The government allowed this initiative to go on knowing that some of it may go against International Law. I find that suspicious.

Yes this problem is becoming more obvious. I guess "they" took the silent route (rather than just shutting down an initiative). Have a more realistic Gegenvorschlag proposed and if that does not help, work out through the slow legislative process which parts can actually be made to precise law (rather than nebulous constitution phrases).

Faltrad · #**112** 16.11.2010, 17:48

	Quote:	PaddyG
	France recently expelled 1500 Roma, is anyone still talking about that?

France send criminal foreigners out of the country. The law allowing the state to kick off a foreigner who is a threat to public order dates from 2nd Nevember 1945, reinforced in 2002/2003. Did that make France safe?
Now you may laugh.

cyrus · #**113** 16.11.2010, 17:49

	Quote:	Gastro Gnome
	I don't really trust anecdotal evidence, so if you could provide some stats instead that would be really useful. Ah . . . just found some . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland (The table there is from official Swiss stats . . . it should be noted that that's convictions not crimes though) Yep . . . rising, but still very low by international standards. BTW: I'm unclear on the details. Will financial white-collar criminals and those convicted of driving offences be affected?

Iwas just looking at that. The biggest increases in the last 5 years were in Serious breaches of traffic laws. But all the ones people are usualy scared about seem relatively unchanged. But they only break it down by type for the last 5 years.

Maybe they should be banning Ivan the boy racer.

cyrus · #**114** 16.11.2010, 17:52

More crime stats here.

#**115** 16.11.2010, 18:00

	Quote:	Gastro Gnome
	I don't really trust anecdotal evidence, so if you could provide some stats instead that would be really useful. Ah . . . just found some . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland (The table there is from official Swiss stats . . . it should be noted that that's convictions not crimes though) Yep . . . rising, but still very low by international standards. BTW: I'm unclear on the details. Will financial white-collar criminals and those convicted of driving offences be affected?

I could care less about international standards for crime. I just like public safety.

#**116** 16.11.2010, 18:02

	Quote:	jj muge
	Yes this problem is becoming more obvious. I guess "they" took the silent route (rather than just shutting down an initiative). Have a more realistic Gegenvorschlag proposed and if that does not help, work out through the slow legislative process which parts can actually be made to precise law (rather than nebulous constitution phrases).

Yeah, sneaky move, I think.

But then, I get the impression the SVP cares more having someone to blame than actually improving a situation.

greenmount · #**117** 16.11.2010, 18:03

And you think CH is not safe? Really?

I get the impression some people would like to live in a phantasy world...

#**118** 16.11.2010, 18:08

	Quote:	greenmount
	And you think CH is not safe? Really?

Of course it is safe. That is one of the reasons why I'm here.

	Quote:	Faltrad
	France send criminal foreigners out of the country. The law allowing the state to kick off a foreigner who is a threat to public order dates from 2nd Nevember 1945, reinforced in 2002/2003. Did that make France safe? Now you may laugh.

That is actually a backdrop for this initiative. France can't do anything about crime because the criminals already have French citizenship. What they say with "Bald Schweizer" is, "Do you want these people here in a way you can no longer do anything about them?"

Gastro Gnome · #**119** 16.11.2010, 18:09

	Quote:	Phos
	I could care less about international standards for crime. I just like public safety.

And who dislikes public safety? No one.

The argument is about the relative costs for marginal benefit.

#**120** 16.11.2010, 18:10

	Quote:	Faltrad
	France send criminal foreigners out of the country. The law allowing the state to kick off a foreigner who is a threat to public order dates from 2nd Nevember 1945, reinforced in 2002/2003. Did that make France safe? Now you may laugh.

France is relatively safe. The point a country must remember is that: Its just as important who you "let in" the country, as well as who gets kicked out. France is having more political troubles and a bit of it has to do with foreginers...back to square one. They have a large group of immigrants and they have no idea what to do with them. Especially since they don't want to immigrate and there is no work for them.