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  #121  
Old 16.11.2010, 18:11
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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France can't do anything about crime because the criminals already have French citizenship.
Yes they can. They can put them in prison (or whatever) just like any other French criminals.

Egalité
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  #122  
Old 16.11.2010, 18:12
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I get the impression some people would like to live in a phantasy world...

No, it's not a fantasy. Switzerland is a small place. It's a matter of intelligence. I would opt for more higher quality citizens, and less lower quality citizens (criminals). You guys can keep the criminals in your home countries if you wish.
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  #123  
Old 16.11.2010, 18:14
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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And who dislikes public safety? No one.

The argument is about the relative costs for marginal benefit.
Speaking of cost....


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Yes they can. They can put them in prison (or whatever) just like any other French criminals.

Egalité

You propose Switzerland builds more prisons and hire more police? Well, I'm glad it isn't up to you.
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  #124  
Old 16.11.2010, 18:18
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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France send criminal foreigners out of the country. The law allowing the state to kick off a foreigner who is a threat to public order dates from 2nd Nevember 1945, reinforced in 2002/2003. Did that make France safe?
Now you may laugh.
France is yet another example for showing politicians say one thing and do another one..just to win votes. The groups of gypsies from Rou&Bg (the not so-popular-to say the least EU-2) are not what I would define as a threat to public order, or is it only me who think so?
Anyway, I've seen interviews with gypsies expelled from France. I got the idea: "We did nothing wrong, we'll be back in 2 weeks"
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  #125  
Old 16.11.2010, 18:21
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Speaking of cost....





You propose Switzerland builds more prisons and hire more police? Well, I'm glad it isn't up to you.
Did I suggest this?

I don't think putting more people in prison necessarily brings down crime . . . just look at the US. It's still a valid punishment for other reasons though.

No one's really figured out exactly what it is that brings down crime . . . otherwise they'd all be doing it.

In terms of costs, I'm more worried about the social costs of heavy handed legislation.

It's funny that the supporters of small government somehow jettison that when it comes to law and order.
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  #126  
Old 16.11.2010, 18:25
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Did I suggest this?

Did you suggest anything else?

I'll tell you what brings crime down... economic prosperity. It means people not committing crimes because they find a more profitable way to live. Solve that, and you can solve the problems of the whole world.

It's funny how liberals like to complain, yet never really offer a viable solution. And when they do offer one, it backfires into one big social mess.
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  #127  
Old 16.11.2010, 18:53
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No, it's not a fantasy. Switzerland is a small place. It's a matter of intelligence. I would opt for more higher quality citizens, and less lower quality citizens (criminals). You guys can keep the criminals in your home countries if you wish.
But..is this your home country..more than it is to me or anyone else on this forum? Why?
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  #128  
Old 16.11.2010, 18:59
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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and not come straight back here, or the UK, France, wherever - as you well know borders are very easy to cross now. Our local border post is hardly ever manned theses days, and never at night + patrols very rare.
My main concern if what would happen to their families - criminals do have wives, children and elderly parents too.

Switzerland will be further estranged from the EU and risk the 1999 reciprocal agreements as soon as the programme kicks into place. Yes many from the extreme right in other countries will envy us - but for the majority, Switzerland will become the example Numero Uno of xenophobia, and a laughing stock too. As a born Swiss, I really hope this won't come to pass, but sadly it seems, the writing is on the wall.
Basically what I wrote on the second post in this thread except "why bother with unmanned border posts"? With Schengen you do not have to show passports at border posts anymore!

Another concern is what about people born in Switzerland of foreign parents & second generation etc. They are not Swiss & could be shipped off to a country that maybe they never ever visited & maybe do not even speak the local language.
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  #129  
Old 16.11.2010, 19:01
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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To be honest, I don't think it will make the slightest bit of difference to Switzerland's economic or political standing.
France recently expelled 1500 Roma, is anyone still talking about that? Granted, France have plenty of more pressing internal issues at the moment, so it would have slipped off the radar somewhat. The UK have looked into introducing a similar initiative (expelling criminals, not Roma!), but that was past news, they're all talking about Will and Kate now.
Not sure that is a good comparison? The French did it once & asy ou say it has died down. The Swiss will be doing it every week so keeping the news & reactions fresh.
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  #130  
Old 16.11.2010, 19:06
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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But..is this your home country..more than it is to me or anyone else on this forum? Why?
Do you want a philosophical answer, or a legal answer? Is Switzerland a public space open to anyone and everyone who wants to live here? By what right does anyone who comes here call this home?

I'm afraid I'm not the one in our conversation wanting to live in a phantasy world.
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  #131  
Old 16.11.2010, 19:09
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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By what right does anyone who comes here call this home?
Jus cogens / non-derogatory International Law eg Protected Persons / Refugees
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  #132  
Old 16.11.2010, 19:16
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Do you want a philosophical answer, or a legal answer? Is Switzerland a public space open to anyone and everyone who wants to live here? By what right does anyone who comes here call this home?

I'm afraid I'm not the one in our conversation wanting to live in a phantasy world.
Calm down.. I was talking about the people who are living here "legally", having a residence/work permit.. not just everyone and anyone.. The residence permit entitles me to call CH - home, at least for the time being...Is the country of origin not home country anymore? That was my question.
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  #133  
Old 16.11.2010, 19:16
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Jus cogens / non-derogatory International Law eg Protected Persons / Refugees
Okay. So how does that apply here?
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  #134  
Old 16.11.2010, 19:18
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Calm down.. I was talking about the people who are living here "legally", having a residence/work permit.. not just everyone and anyone.. The residence permit entitles me to call CH - home, at least for the time being...Is the country of origin not home country anymore? That was my question.

Well of course you have rights here. While you are here legally, you are provided the same rights as ordinary citizens..... until you break the law.
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  #135  
Old 16.11.2010, 19:30
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Consequence: The first EU person criminal that actually would get kicked out and loves Switzerland enough to feel strongly about it will go to Strassbourg - and the court will kick the federal governments butts. Problem: The people behind the initiative would not love anything more than this to happen. "You see: All this EU stuff is against our democracy" is exactly what a SVP politician needs for the next election campaign. It is really sad to see how much smarter the political right is here compared to the others - everyone can foresee this set up and the initiative should have been rejected from the start. Again, as the minaret one is the same: Democracy is cool, but it has limits where it breaks basic rights or international treaties... The same is BTW true with the minaret case: Any Muslim who really wanted to could get the law banned in Strassbourg. But that would have the same effect further strengthening the SVP and their xenophobic campaigns...
let's talk about the federal constitution, the laws, and the legal process. Whomever is to appeal has to appeal first to the Cantonal Court of Appeal, and then to the Federal Court, and then can take the way to Strassburg. The Federal government according to the constitution is the Executive and so has NOTHING to do with it.

And now to the minaret case. The Court in Strassburg does not accept a case without a case. Which means that somebody has to take the matter to court. For example, if one of the Muslim communities applies for an exemption approval for a minaret at Brauerstrasse in Zürich (saying that some other things happen on that road) and gets turned down by the authorities, they can take the matter to court, saying it is discriminatory, and then up and up and up.
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  #136  
Old 16.11.2010, 19:35
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Okay. So how does that apply here?
I was merely giving an example of a foreigner who has the right to call CH home. Non-refoulement is protected against domestic legislation.
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  #137  
Old 16.11.2010, 19:38
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Because you are not a Nationality that is stereotyped ...
'Nuff said.

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It's a ridiculous leap to say the posters are stereotyping whole nationalities. It's simply overplayed...
Not to many, it ain't. Pretty blunt to claim there's no inference. The SVP would be disappointed the message was lost on you. They spent a fair penny getting the tone just 'right'. I don't see any blonde, child-murdering Mothers on the posters. Oh wait, it's only the Serbs, Bosnians et al we're taking about. The 'Right' kind of foreigner - and haven't we all heard that phrase when being checked out by a landlord? - isn't targeted, of course. I guess because they can afford the Seefeld rents.

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absolutely right, only the guilty need to worry about this
Have you any idea about how ridiculous this argument is? Oh, you've been banned. Sorry, question withdrawn, as you can't reply.

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I just said I don't like the inclusion of economic crimes in the initiative.

But.... I don't like crime and criminals even more.
What's the difference? Is it ok to cause untold misery through funding dubious Dam schemes elsewhere / dodge the legal bullet by having friends in high places (Pace, Marc Rich) / thinking economic crime doesn't damage people? Ah, but that gets complicated. Easier to target the brute with the muskels; the other angle is a little too close to how the bread is brought to the table.

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There has been a steady increase in the past decade, starting from the early 1990s. It has changed Switzerland's civil landscape. It is enough for me and perhaps the majority to say we don't like where it is headed, and something ought to be done about it.
Is there anywhere in the world that has seen a reduction in crime?

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No, it's not a fantasy. Switzerland is a small place. It's a matter of intelligence. I would opt for more higher quality citizens, and less lower quality citizens (criminals). You guys can keep the criminals in your home countries if you wish.
Good grief. What next? Blue eyes and atheltic, 1m90 physiques?

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No one's really figured out exactly what it is that brings down crime . . . otherwise they'd all be doing it...
Enlightened countries do what they can to increase social integration and opportunity for all. Switzerland does a fair job at this. It works, but costs tax Dollars. Boo, bad bleeding heart, liberal tax Dollars.
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Last edited by Uncle Max; 16.11.2010 at 19:54. Reason: Damn Typo
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  #138  
Old 16.11.2010, 19:48
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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What's the difference? Is it ok to cause untold misery through funding dubious Damn schemes elsewhere / dodge the legal bullet by having friends in high places (Pace, Marc Rich) / thinking economic crime doesn't damage people? Ah, but that gets complicated. Easier to target the brute with the muskels; the other angle is a little too close to how the bread is brought to the table.
THAT kind of economic crime, I don't mind pursuing. But to punish someone who is simply eeking out a living does not make for a better society.



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Is there anywhere in the world that has seen a reduction in crime?
Many. New York City, California, in fact... most of the US.
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  #139  
Old 16.11.2010, 19:49
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Last year Switzerland deported about 1,000 convicted criminals. More would have been deported but an international agreement results in them not being deported for the time being, if their country is in turmoil or they would certainlay be harmed. Hence prisons all over Europe are filling up.

The first referendum from SVP types proposed deporting them all, after the trial. The problem is if they were deported to the EU then they could come back again! There was also a limited set of crimes, financial crime was not included, but social security crime was. Breaking and entering was, but grand theft was not. The whole thing was rushed out without any thought.

The (Gegen Vorschlag) alternative reccommendation is to deport them if the crime deserves at least 18 months in jail. There are other factors and the best explanation I have found is here, http://www.baloti.ch/?lang=en
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Old 16.11.2010, 20:05
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Some so called 'immigrants' in France have been there for 3 generations, from North Africa Magreb countries (ex colonies) and they are still hugely discriminated against, in every possible way, hence the resentment and malaise. If you want to help integration, you have to address injustice and discrimination- or you end up with trouble. Switzerland has few troubles now - existing laws and legislation are perfectly adequate- so let's not ignore the problems and deal with them. Alienating whole ethnic, religious or other groups is NEVER a recipe for success and integration IMHO.
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