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  #141  
Old 16.11.2010, 21:19
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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If you want to help integration, you have to address injustice and discrimination- or you end up with trouble. Switzerland has few troubles now - existing laws and legislation are perfectly adequate- so let's not ignore the problems and deal with them. Alienating whole ethnic, religious or other groups is NEVER a recipe for success and integration IMHO.
Nice sentiment in this post. But you made no mention of the immigrants' role and responsibility in this picture. Also, a substantial amount of citizens apparently do not think the existing laws and legislation are (perfectly) adequate enough. Should their sentiments simply be thrown out as xenophobic hate, or is there rational thinking behind in it?
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  #142  
Old 16.11.2010, 21:23
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Nice sentiment in this post. But you made no mention of the immigrants' role and responsibility in this picture. Also, a substantial amount of citizens apparently do not think the existing laws and legislation are (perfectly) adequate enough. Should their sentiments simply be thrown out as xenophobic hate, or is there rational thinking behind in it?
Some immigrants have no regard for the law, where ever they end up. Not all, though, which is kinda inconvenient to the campaign.
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  #143  
Old 16.11.2010, 21:28
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Some immigrants have no regard for the law, where ever they end up. Not all, though, which is kinda inconvenient to the campaign.

I think this law will go farther and accomplish more towards integrating immigrants than a politically correct approach. Families would look after the behavior of their members. This could be for the benefit of... serbs, croats, etc... Those who learn to play by the rules will get rewarded, and those who don't.... well... will regret not playing by the rules.
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  #144  
Old 16.11.2010, 21:33
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I think this law will go farther and accomplish more towards integrating immigrants than a politically correct approach. Families would look after the behavior of their members. Those who learn to play by the rules will get rewarded, and those who don't.... well... will regret not playing by the rules.
Time will tell.

The 'anti' graffiti seen on the campaign posters in many of the neighbourhoods populated by the poor - often immigrant - demographics would suggest such sentiment is rejected as inflammatory. It would be fine and dandy should the focus be as much on the Baddies on Paradeplatz as on Hardstrasse, but whoa daddy we won't be seeing much of that anytime soon.
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  #145  
Old 16.11.2010, 21:42
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Time will tell.

The 'anti' graffiti seen on the campaign posters in many of the neighbourhoods populated by the poor - often immigrant - demographics would suggest such sentiment is rejected as inflammatory. It would be fine and dandy should the focus be as much on the Baddies on Paradeplatz as on Hardstrasse, but whoa daddy we won't be seeing much of that anytime soon.

Kids.

Now for those who are more serious about living a better life in Switzerland, this is an opportunity to put a bridle on crime. Any parent, whether Serb, Croat, or whatever, should be concerned about their childrens' involvement in crime, whether as perpetrator or victim. This can in fact better their lives.

As for those who simply just want to clown around in Switzerland, well, this is an indicator that there are limits to it.
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  #146  
Old 16.11.2010, 21:45
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

I feel it is pretty clear that one of the initiatives will be accepted. The initiative is basically asking the Swiss to decide if they want criminals to be still allowed to live here, and honestly how wants more criminals than necessary in any country?
What I feel should be the bigger discussion is which initiative should be accepted. From what I've read the counter-initiative seems to be more rounded and well thought through.

The SVP's initiative seems to be the usual emotional scare mongering language that they normally use. I feel they basically just took what ever crimes were flavour of the month when they created the text to provoke emotions within the population.
What is now flavour of the month is speeding. The SVP have said the text allows for the parlament to add further crimes such as this to the list should the initiative be accepted.

So basically they're asking the Swiss to say yes to allowing the government to expel criminals of crimes which will later be decided.

Needless to say I'm for the counter initiative as it gives clear and general criteria which can apply to any crime but unfortunately I'm expecting the SVP to win as they are good at hitting the nerve of certain Swiss people
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  #147  
Old 16.11.2010, 21:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Kids.

Now for those who are more serious about living a better life in Switzerland, this is an opportunity to put a bridle on crime. Any parent, whether Serb, Croat, or whatever, should be concerned about their childrens' involvement in crime, whether as perpetrator or victim. This can in fact better their lives.

As for those who simply just want to clown around in Switzerland, well, this is an indicator that there are limits to it.
I think that goes for Swiss parents too, no?
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  #148  
Old 16.11.2010, 22:04
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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I think that goes for Swiss parents too, no?
Absolutely. The cultured Swiss know pretty well about their civic duties. They know their community. Yes, there are outliers, but for the most part, they do know about taking care of their community.

Now, should immigrants not have the same level of responsibility in order to integrate into the culture of the country they are living in? Should they be able to disregard the community around them because they come from someplace else? What are their responsibilities towards integrating?

Number 1: Don't commit any crimes.

If they follow that, then this initiative has no harm for them. In fact, it is good for them.

Last edited by Phos; 16.11.2010 at 23:15.
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  #149  
Old 16.11.2010, 22:21
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

Yes, I can see your reasoning and even agree. I agree about the deterrent issue too. However, this initiative is more likely to incite distrust, feel like a rejection by some communities, rather than help integration IMHO.
You make it sound so simple - but it is not. As said before, what about children and elderly relatives, families? What about those who come from violent countries (Somalia for instance). Balkan countries are in the EU- so then (if you feel that is where the problems are coming from, not MY words).
In the 50s we did have some problems with new immigrants from Italy and Spain, then later Portugal. These have now disappeared within a couple of generations. Not surprising that newcomers from violent war-torn countries did have some issues when they first came - but those are slowly on the way out- just give them a little more time (YES with a firm hand and existing laws). I mentioned above the constant alienation, prejudice and difficulties (access to good education, further ed, jobs, housing, etc) for some groups in France after several generations of immigration- do we feel this would help Switzerland and decrease criminality? I don't think so. I know from having witnessed it again and again- that some 'types' of people, especially young people, are the only ones to get stopped and searched at border controls, and in bars, towns, roads. I know people in the Police who actually enjoy stopping them and have boasted to me that they 'know just the buttons to push' to get a negative reaction and an excuse to arrest. Tragic.
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  #150  
Old 16.11.2010, 22:29
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Nice sentiment in this post. But you made no mention of the immigrants' role and responsibility in this picture. Also, a substantial amount of citizens apparently do not think the existing laws and legislation are (perfectly) adequate enough. Should their sentiments simply be thrown out as xenophobic hate, or is there rational thinking behind in it?
Rational thinking behind it?

Umm let me see
  • The list of "qualifying" offences is quite random; not rational
  • Nobody seems sure if criminals are expelled before or after their punishment; rational basis for a vote?
  • Deporting "foreign" criminals does not do anything to reduce crime by Swiss people; in fact, it even reduces the competition
  • There does not seem to be any mechanism to prevent Schengen based criminals from simply returning; apart from the threat of deporting them again.
  • The process appears to contravene or renege on agreements already signed by the Swiss Govt.- I thought only dictatorships exhibited such principles?
  • Even you are on record as saying you are not interested in how it will be implemented
It would be far better for the image of the Swiss if we tackled the root of the problem instead of simply exporting it.
If this approach & its supporting arguments is adopted then what could this lead to next?
Exporting atomic waste to 3rd world countries?
Shipping the old & sick & unemployed out of the country to improve the quality of the citizens?
??
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  #151  
Old 16.11.2010, 22:35
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yes, I can see your reasoning and even agree. I agree about the deterrent issue too. However, this initiative is more likely to incite distrust, feel like a rejection by some communities, rather than help integration IMHO.
You make it sound so simple - but it is not. As said before, what about children and elderly relatives, families? What about those who come from violent countries (Somalia for instance). Balkan countries are in the EU- so then (if you feel that is where the problems are coming from, not MY words).
In the 50s we did have some problems with new immigrants from Italy and Spain, then later Portugal. These have now disappeared within a couple of generations. Not surprising that newcomers from violent war-torn countries did have some issues when they first came - but those are slowly on the way out- just give them a little more time (YES with a firm hand and existing laws). I mentioned above the constant alienation, prejudice and difficulties (access to good education, further ed, jobs, housing, etc) for some groups in France after several generations of immigration- do we feel this would help Switzerland and decrease criminality? I don't think so. I know from having witnessed it again and again- that some 'types' of people, especially young people, are the only ones to get stopped and searched at border controls, and in bars, towns, roads. I know people in the Police who actually enjoy stopping them and have boasted to me that they 'know just the buttons to push' to get a negative reaction and an excuse to arrest. Tragic.

I know firsthand how racist discrimination works here. I almost quit living here because of it. In fact, it was an SVP poster that pushed me over the edge. One of the things I noticed about the Swiss is they can be brutally honest about how they feel about strangers, even right in front of your face. They love to remind people that they are strangers here. And in the same way, the posters are a reflection of this.

But throughout all that, I have never experienced any harm. Rudeness, yes. But real harm? Never. In fact, some of those people even turned out to be friends after we got to know each other better. This leaves me to conclude that it is an issue of style. As ProsperityJoy posted on another thread about the Swiss, "They bark, but they do not bite".

There are those who come into Switzerland, integrate, and become very successful. There are those who have the most difficult time. I don't think anyone ever promised anybody a cakewalk through Switzerland. I don't think anyone owes anybody a cakewalk through Switzerland. There are Swiss people who live here who do not get a cakewalk. Switzerland can be tough. And for those who truly cannot hang with it, what do they expect? Modify every Swiss to their liking? It's not going to happen. Such a person would be better off trying a different country.
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  #152  
Old 16.11.2010, 22:37
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Absolutely. The cultured Swiss no pretty well about their civic duties. They know their community. Yes, there are outliers, but for the most part, they do know about taking care of their community.

Now, should immigrants not have the same level of responsibility in order to integrate into the culture of the country they are living in? Should they be able to disregard the community around them because they come from someplace else? What are their responsibilities towards integrating?

Number 1: Don't commit any crimes.

If they follow that, then this initiative has no harm for them. In fact, it is good for them.
You do know that circa 50% of the current prison population are Swiss?

Or by cultured Swiss do you mean those top bankers whose level of community responsibility & knowledge of civic duties cost us some 100 Billion?

Or do you mean those Swiss football fans who regularily cause mayhem, damage & destruction.

Or, - no on second thoughts I am better leaving you with your views & ideas, shame to spoil it for you.
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  #153  
Old 16.11.2010, 22:41
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Rational thinking behind it?

Umm let me see
  • The list of "qualifying" offences is quite random; not rational
  • Nobody seems sure if criminals are expelled before or after their punishment; rational basis for a vote?
  • Deporting "foreign" criminals does not do anything to reduce crime by Swiss people; in fact, it even reduces the competition
  • There does not seem to be any mechanism to prevent Schengen based criminals from simply returning; apart from the threat of deporting them again.
  • The process appears to contravene or renege on agreements already signed by the Swiss Govt.- I thought only dictatorships exhibited such principles?
  • Even you are on record as saying you are not interested in how it will be implemented
It would be far better for the image of the Swiss if we tackled the root of the problem instead of simply exporting it.
If this approach & its supporting arguments is adopted then what could this lead to next?
Exporting atomic waste to 3rd world countries?
Shipping the old & sick & unemployed out of the country to improve the quality of the citizens?
??

A lot of what ifs.

And not doing anything about the issues of crime and integration is better how?
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Old 16.11.2010, 22:47
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You do know that circa 50% of the current prison population are Swiss?
Of course. They make up 80% of the population.


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Or by cultured Swiss do you mean those top bankers whose level of community responsibility & knowledge of civic duties cost us some 100 Billion?

Or do you mean those Swiss football fans who regularily cause mayhem, damage & destruction.

Or, - no on second thoughts I am better leaving you with your views & ideas, shame to spoil it for you.

I'm not even going to respond to this silly part.
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  #155  
Old 16.11.2010, 22:56
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

1) what nationality were the 3 (swiss?) students from Geneva who beat up and robbed the waiter dring their school outing in Rome, Italy some 10 days ago? They could have beat *me* up in Mendriso or Lugano for that matter. So much for linking safety and foreigners together.
(hint: the big problem behind this wave of immigration is that the swiss have grown a fondess to indulge in cost-cutting, and love to squeeze the wage out an illiterate, illegal immigrant... wink wink)

2) as the economic climate worsens, frustrated citizens all over the once-glorious West will start to point fingers against them filthy immigrant criminals. And when the last immigrant will have been kicked out, the same citizens will start to take it out on each other. I'm back to the shooting range FWIW... have a family to defend against the lunatics, buffoons, fringenut "citizens" :-/

3) I'll probably mark my ballot with some kind of desacratory statement (i.e. kick the bankers out of the country, or something along those lines).
The whole initiative is really pointless...

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  #156  
Old 16.11.2010, 23:11
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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As said before, what about children and elderly relatives, families? What about those who come from violent countries (Somalia for instance). Balkan countries are in the EU- so then (if you feel that is where the problems are coming from, not MY words).
In the 50s we did have some problems with new immigrants from Italy and Spain, then later Portugal. These have now disappeared within a couple of generations. Not surprising that newcomers from violent war-torn countries did have some issues when they first came - but those are slowly on the way out- just give them a little more time (YES with a firm hand and existing laws). I mentioned above the constant alienation, prejudice and difficulties (access to good education, further ed, jobs, housing, etc) for some groups in France after several generations of immigration- do we feel this would help Switzerland and decrease criminality? I don't think so. I know from having witnessed it again and again- that some 'types' of people, especially young people, are the only ones to get stopped and searched at border controls, and in bars, towns, roads. I know people in the Police who actually enjoy stopping them and have boasted to me that they 'know just the buttons to push' to get a negative reaction and an excuse to arrest. Tragic.

If the fathers are in jail they can't really help the families either. The SVP have said people from such countries as Somalia cannot be expelled as its against international law. I do understand some of your arguments but the discrimination you mention is already present. Surely expelling the black sheep as the SVP would call them would help the well behaved foreigners improve their reputation as there would be less of the bad apples in the country. I also feel the burden lies with the foreigner to behave himself so that his children and grandchildren can benefit from this country. Not on the Swiss to bite their tongues for decades till certain people learn how to be civilised
It would annoy me as well if I got discriminated at bars but if I was a bar owner and there were constantly fights with people from one nationality would you not just ban the lot rather than risk your bar getting bad rep and giving out money for extra security and cleaning up?
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  #157  
Old 16.11.2010, 23:19
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It would annoy me as well if I got discriminated at bars but if I was a bar owner and there were constantly fights with people from one nationality would you not just ban the lot rather than risk your bar getting bad rep and giving out money for extra security and cleaning up?
No absolutely not. I am staggered you are even suggesting it, this is a developed country.

For kicking people out, you are right that you cannot send them to some places. The chinese for example, do not take back asylum seekers so it would only be enforceable against countries that agreed to it.

which makes it a bit crap, really.
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  #158  
Old 16.11.2010, 23:21
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Rational thinking behind it?

Umm let me see
  • The list of "qualifying" offences is quite random; not rational
  • Nobody seems sure if criminals are expelled before or after their punishment; rational basis for a vote?
  • Deporting "foreign" criminals does not do anything to reduce crime by Swiss people; in fact, it even reduces the competition
  • There does not seem to be any mechanism to prevent Schengen based criminals from simply returning; apart from the threat of deporting them again.
  • The process appears to contravene or renege on agreements already signed by the Swiss Govt.- I thought only dictatorships exhibited such principles?
  • Even you are on record as saying you are not interested in how it will be implemented
It would be far better for the image of the Swiss if we tackled the root of the problem instead of simply exporting it.
If this approach & its supporting arguments is adopted then what could this lead to next?
Exporting atomic waste to 3rd world countries?
Shipping the old & sick & unemployed out of the country to improve the quality of the citizens?
??
The counter initiative is rational[/LIST]the criminals are expelled after sitting their sentence
Yes it does nothing against Swiss criminality but to me that is like saying we shouldn't crack down on drink driving as people are still getting killed through speeding. There are many ways to cut down on crime but surely the most simple is to tell many of the criminals to leave.
Yes you can't put GPS trackers on every deportee to make sure they don't come back but at least they won't be able to live here officially again with all the benefits. There will never be be a 100% success rate.
The difference is that the problems you list originate from here and as such should be dealt with here. Foreign criminals do not originate from here so why should this country freely put up with the harm they cause?
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Old 16.11.2010, 23:22
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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No absolutely not. I am staggered you are even suggesting it, this is a developed country.

For kicking people out, you are right that you cannot send them to some places. The chinese for example, do not take back asylum seekers so it would only be enforceable against countries that agreed to it.

which makes it a bit crap, really.
How many of the countries in this world do not respect basic human rights? how many of its citizens live in Switzerland

Edit: Seriously if one nationality fought in your bar every second week you would still let them in even though your business would go bust because of it?

double edit:actually I believe the Chinese do take back Asylum seekers. The only problem is they would be probably kill them. That's why the Guantanemo Chinese are living here
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Old 16.11.2010, 23:26
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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1) what nationality were the 3 (swiss?) students from Geneva who beat up and robbed the waiter dring their school outing in Rome, Italy some 10 days ago? They could have beat *me* up in Mendriso or Lugano for that matter. So much for linking safety and foreigners together.

Paul
Would you not say it would be within Italy's rights to say get out of our country and don't come back after they committed this crime?
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