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  #161  
Old 16.11.2010, 23:31
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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How many of the countries in this world do not respect basic human rights? how many of its citizens live in Switzerland
China. 13,286.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/pe...ese-population

Example: China does not accept back 40k deportable immigrants: http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_...ation_laws.htm


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Edit: Seriously if one nationality fought in your bar every second week you would still let them in even though your business would go bust because of it?
No you can't, you would be closed as soon as one of them went to the authorities. You cannot blanket discriminate by race or nationality. to get to the logical conclusion of your argument lets say you have black and white people in your bar. all the white people fight, all the black people dont. Will you put a sign on your bar, in Zurich, that says "no whites". And if you do, how long do you think the police will let you stay open ?
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  #162  
Old 16.11.2010, 23:34
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

It seems we are now going round and round- so perhaps not very worthwhile continuing this thread. Must say I'd be interested to know how many here will be entitled to vote, apart from me.
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  #163  
Old 16.11.2010, 23:47
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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China. 13,286.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/pe...ese-population

Example: China does not accept back 40k deportable immigrants: http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_...ation_laws.htm




No you can't, you would be closed as soon as one of them went to the authorities. You cannot blanket discriminate by race or nationality. to get to the logical conclusion of your argument lets say you have black and white people in your bar. all the white people fight, all the black people dont. Will you put a sign on your bar, in Zurich, that says "no whites". And if you do, how long do you think the police will let you stay open ?

ok out of those 13000 foreigners lets generously say 2% are criminals. Do you think its fair to say this law would be unworkable because of 260 people?

If I put up a sign then probably not very long but if all the whites who were maybe 3% of the guests kept on fighting I would tell my security to sort it out and make sure there's no more fighting. Yes its discrimination and its not fair but I would prefere to keep my business open. There are many places were certain nationalities are not allowed in our where men are not allowed in with out a woman because of these reasons

And Odile I can't vote but I would be eligible to become Swiss
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  #164  
Old 17.11.2010, 00:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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ok out of those 13000 foreigners lets generously say 2% are criminals. Do you think its fair to say this law would be unworkable because of 260 people?

If I put up a sign then probably not very long but if all the whites who were maybe 3% of the guests kept on fighting I would tell my security to sort it out and make sure there's no more fighting. Yes its discrimination and its not fair but I would prefere to keep my business open. There are many places were certain nationalities are not allowed in our where men are not allowed in with out a woman because of these reasons

And Odile I can't vote but I would be eligible to become Swiss
Yes, regarding those 260 people I think that makes the law incorrect.

I have not come across anywhere in my life where a nationality is not allowed entry to a bar unless as you say you just whisper to your doormen not to let them in, which means of course, your now a criminal so are liable to be deported yourself if someone finds out.
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  #165  
Old 17.11.2010, 00:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Absolutely. The cultured Swiss ...
Getting scary now. Next we'll have the concept of Volk.

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... One of the things I noticed about the Swiss is they can be brutally honest about how they feel about strangers, even right in front of your face. They love to remind people that they are strangers here. And in the same way, the posters are a reflection of this.

But throughout all that, I have never experienced any harm. Rudeness, yes. But real harm? Never...
You live in a bubble, mate. Plenty of 'the wrong sort of foreigner' gets it bad. But then, you appear to be a Solipsist, so there's not much point in discussing it.

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...It would annoy me as well if I got discriminated at bars but if I was a bar owner and there were constantly fights with people from one nationality would you not just ban the lot rather than risk your bar getting bad rep and giving out money for extra security and cleaning up?
Staggering attitude. You clearly have no idea what it means to be on the receiving end. Do you think it appropriate to have signs saying "No Yugos" outside bars?

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  #166  
Old 17.11.2010, 00:05
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Yes, regarding those 260 people I think that makes the law incorrect.

I have not come across anywhere in my life where a nationality is not allowed entry to a bar unless as you say you just whisper to your doormen not to let them in, which means of course, your now a criminal so are liable to be deported yourself if someone finds out.
Fair enough then. If thats your opinion I'd rather have thousands of less criminals rather than have them all because we couldn't export 260 more

I take it your not Albanian then. I've experienced it many times with friends who weren't allowed in as the only one out of a group and have also seen it tons of times with people around me at the entrance.

And show me some one who was jailed for 2 years for discriminating about who he allowed in to his disco. If you find that then I agree I would be at risk of deportation
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  #167  
Old 17.11.2010, 00:15
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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It would annoy me as well if I got discriminated at bars but if I was a bar owner and there were constantly fights with people from one nationality would you not just ban the lot rather than risk your bar getting bad rep and giving out money for extra security and cleaning up?
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I have been refused entry in to places before.
Where have I said its appropriate to have signs saying no Yugos?

If it stops the fighting then the action is understandable and yes I would do the same.
So you've been subject to unjust discrimination, complained it's not fair and yet seem willing to try to justify the attitude? Staggering.

"Man hands on misery to man..."
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  #168  
Old 17.11.2010, 00:15
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Staggering attitude. You clearly have no idea what it means to be on the receiving end. Do you think it appropriate to have signs saying "No Yugos" outside bars?
Yes I have been refused entry before.

I would prefer there was no discrimination but if a disco owner constantly had problems with certain nationalities then I understand he would rather ban those people rather than lose business
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  #169  
Old 17.11.2010, 00:17
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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So you've been subject to unjust discrimination, complained it's not fair and yet seem willing to try to justify the attitude? Staggering.

"Man hands on misery to man..."
Really at discos I couldn't give a damn there are plenty others
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  #170  
Old 17.11.2010, 00:45
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

As a Swiss, I find the issue of the different Ausländer-permits more important to this debate, and it shows another Ausländer policy weakness of how a long standing C-permit holder could get into trouble, even after having spent his/her whole life in the country (birth, youth, etc.). This is also the main reason I haven't voted yet, I however I will probably be voting 'Yes' as I share pretty much Phos' opinion. I see it as a symbolic vote, a way to make a stand against those who disrespect the rules.

What I find problematic is that many C-permit holders decide to NOT become Swiss, as not being Swiss has, particularly as young adult, one big advantage: Not having to serve in the military. While the 20-something Swiss would have to go to military service, C-Permit holders will get away without it, while still having the same rights as a regular citizen. From my experience this, and another reason which is a rather old fashioned, but strong sense of nationalism, particularly among people from Ex-Yugoslavia, holds people back from becoming Swiss right away. Although they might say that becoming Swiss could be an advantage later-on in life.

And that's the main issue here, I think. On one hand there are the Swiss, and on the other hand, there are people who spent their whole life in Switzerland, who never became Swiss, but should be considered Swiss from a 'chronological' and social point of view.

In my opinion the problem is the C-permit and the way they are issued. Or even the fact that they exist for people born in CH. Maybe we should introduce an automatism so that people born in CH should become Swiss , so that the ones who are life long "Swiss citizens" can be distinguished from "foreign troublemakers"?

Either way, we can't make it right for everybody. Our prisons are up to 70% full of foreigners. It won't hurt to have the possibility to send some of them back home without a process, and a large amount of our tax money inside the treasury.

The moral question however stays, knowing that some of the people we would deport know nothing else than CH, as this is their (unofficial) home. But I think if this initiative will be accepted, some will think twice before committing a crime, and rather get an education and be 'brav' (well behaved).

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  #171  
Old 17.11.2010, 01:48
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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You live in a bubble, mate. Plenty of 'the wrong sort of foreigner' gets it bad. But then, you appear to be a Solipsist, so there's not much point in discussing it.
So it would appear to someone who doesn't have a valid point to make in a debate.
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  #172  
Old 17.11.2010, 02:47
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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On the other hand, I think it's about time for zero tolerance for violent crimes.
Playing devils advocate, but which violent crimes? When does your intolerance of violence turn you into the more violent criminal?

Would you take a playground fight and lock up the protagonist? Sibling rivalry? a drunken fight where all is forgotten in the morning?

Will zero tolerance be applied to the enforcers? If a police officer is found to have used excessive force on an innocent suspect, would they suffer the same consequences as any other thug? How will they be effective if not allowed to do so?
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  #173  
Old 17.11.2010, 03:16
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Playing devils advocate, but which violent crimes? When does your intolerance of violence turn you into the more violent criminal?
Sorry Cyrus, not personally to you but I have to very blunt about this one but this is bullshit. I lived in a police state and I have lived in societies that have zero tollerance. There is a difference and that difference is education levels. If the citizens are educated then it would be very hard for this vicious circle to occur. This is the same PC crap about smacking children and it puts my bloody pressure right frigging up. If the punishment that is metered out to the wrong doer is not more painful to the punisher then it is an unjustified punishment, that simple. If my child kicked a dog in front of me, I would put him or her over my lap and give him/her a bloody good hiding and then explain the situation....but make no mistake, it would hurt me more to do that than the child, both emotionally because of the pain it would cause them and secondly because of the deep shame that I would feel that my child had done this thing in the first place.
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Old 17.11.2010, 08:53
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Would you not say it would be within Italy's rights to say get out of our country and don't come back after they committed this crime?
Yes BUT....

* as someone esle has pointed out, it still doesn't help the waiter, or whoever got was on the wrong side of the swiss student's punches (BTW I had forgotten about the three kids who went on a rampage in Germany. So much for the *foreigners* causing problems)

* the whole issue of "safety" is a farce. So many local kids get into serious trouble, beating up each other, taking it out on adults as well. And I'll skip the whole issue of hooliganism (try getting trapped between hockey factions...ugh!) - in most cases, again, it is *locals* who are prone to this violence.
Being selective on who can immigrate and at what conditions; cracking down on illegal labor practices; educating children at home and at school IMHO is what could start to make a difference....

* At the end of the day "someone" is manipulating (again) a shallow public opinion, and tickling popular resentment themes, out of pure opportunistic calculus. I'm really stumped when people with a better education fail to see through this game... :-(

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Old 17.11.2010, 09:00
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

while deporting criminals makes sense to a certain degree, one thing has to be clear: the SVP wants to get rid of all foreign nationals and naturalized Swiss citizens. the upcoming vote is just a one step in that direction.

so while I'm all in favor of having individuals who commit very serious crimes deported, I can't in good conscience vote in favor of the initiative or the counter initiative.

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  #176  
Old 17.11.2010, 09:19
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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Fair enough then. If thats your opinion I'd rather have thousands of less criminals rather than have them all because we couldn't export 260 more

I take it your not Albanian then. I've experienced it many times with friends who weren't allowed in as the only one out of a group and have also seen it tons of times with people around me at the entrance.

And show me some one who was jailed for 2 years for discriminating about who he allowed in to his disco. If you find that then I agree I would be at risk of deportation
and did it say on the bar door "no albanians" ? Or, as was my point, was it an unofficial implementation by the door staff ?

Your quite happy to define your own list of whats "bad" (fighting) and "not so bad" (discrimination) when it comes to deportation, but of course, you might not be making the law in the end, so the people up top might think discrimination is actually a deportable offence.

Getting rid of violent criminals to their home countries is always a great tub thumper to have people nodding and agreeing about the disgusting thugs and what should be done with them, but when policy implementation time comes along, and the details have to be put in place to ensure that all people are treated under a policy equally, it's no so simple.
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Old 17.11.2010, 10:41
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

It is still facinating that this whole situation brings this wonderful bigotry to the front when it is still just about crime. Clearly the SVP have succeeded in thier aims to get everybody at eachother's throats about what is a very simple issue.

The solution to crime is to identify the criminals and then find out why they are commiting the crimes. You then first remove the reason that they are commiting the crime, then second the criminal if that is not possible.

I mean seriously though just think about it in the context of kids again for a second, when one of your kids does something naughty, you find out why they have done that thing. Sometimes it was take little Jonny's car because they did not have thier own. Sometimes it is because little Jonny was a prat towards them before you stepped into the room. However, you don't just chuck one of the out of the house forever for that, you figure out what went wrong and then try and fix the problem. If it got to the point where the one was seriously threatening the life of the other, I am sure at that stage you would boot the one out of the house.

I just really really wish that we could move beyond rising to the SVP bait overhere and making this whole thing about race when the issue isn't.

I think we can all accept that the posters and the initiative is racist....it is, that is clear. But at the same time I think we can all accept there is a problem with crime committed by immigrants in the country.

There are only two questions here in my mind:
1. How do you solve the crime problem?
2. How do you ensure that racism does not become a problem or solve it if it is?
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  #178  
Old 17.11.2010, 10:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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and did it say on the bar door "no albanians" ? Or, as was my point, was it an unofficial implementation by the door staff ?

Your quite happy to define your own list of whats "bad" (fighting) and "not so bad" (discrimination) when it comes to deportation, but of course, you might not be making the law in the end, so the people up top might think discrimination is actually a deportable offence.
Actually it’s not my definition. The counter initiative wants to deport foreigners who sit 2 years in jail, no matter what the crime so as I said if someone has been convicted for 2 years for banning a certain nationality from his disco then yes I would theoretically be in danger from deportation but in the examples that I’ve seen most the the time they get a fine so that win’t be a reason for deportation. Even if the main initiative gets accepted I’m gonna go out on a limb here and suggest discrimination won’t be added.

I’m not saying discrimination is good but I’m saying if a certain nationality always causes problems within bar or disco then it is understandable that the owners decides not to do business with them.
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Old 17.11.2010, 10:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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This is the same PC crap about smacking children and it puts my bloody pressure right frigging up. If the punishment that is metered out to the wrong doer is not more painful to the punisher then it is an unjustified punishment, that simple. If my child kicked a dog in front of me, I would put him or her over my lap and give him/her a bloody good hiding and then explain the situation....but make no mistake, it would hurt me more to do that than the child, both emotionally because of the pain it would cause them and secondly because of the deep shame that I would feel that my child had done this thing in the first place.
Sort of a point I was trying to make. Zero tolerance always has exceptions, it shouldn't happen to reasonable people, only unreasonable people. You would expect anyone seeing you discipline your child to assume you had a valid reason to do so, and the remorse you feel for doing it sufficient punishment for yourself.

The PC crap you're getting so angered could also easily be described as a zero tolerance approach to violence on children. Trouble is, there are usualy mitigating circumstances.

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Old 17.11.2010, 10:54
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Re: What if? Consequences of expulsion initiative being accepted?

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the SVP wants to get rid of all foreign nationals and naturalized Swiss citizens.
I think you're confusing SVP with PNOS..
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