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  #21  
Old 20.12.2010, 13:00
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

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Electric cars are being forced on the market by daft politicians thinking this is the answer to keeping the freedom of private transport and at the same time being "green".

The fact is the technology is simply not there - yet. It will be about 25 years before batteries or some form of power cell are efficient enough to power cars.

Small petrol engines are still "greener" in a dust to dust calculation...
In your estimation (even though they already do power cars).
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  #22  
Old 20.12.2010, 13:23
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

For 100 years people have got used to getting in their cars - starting them (although that used to happen before getting in the car) - driving around - a lot - filling them with fuel - and driving around - a lot.

There are now quite a lot of cars that will do 1000km on single tank of fuel.

Repeat that with an electric car.

The zero emissions thing is a bit of myth - but the concept if valid. The Jaguar concept looks quite impressive but that opts for lightweight turbines to power electric motors.

The end of traditional cars isn't here - look at how much more efficient modern cars are compared with 10-20 years ago, better aerodynamics, more efficient engines, longer gearing, stop-start technology. Throw in a KERS system and it won't be longer before you'll have cars capable for <3l/100km.

At that level - you can go for a smaller fuel tank - cutting weight - which improves economy.

The electric car works in an urban environment with an easy method of charging at home, office and destination. And if that re-charge isn't available the car must still be capable of long distance travel.

The car defines freedom (even if in reality it doesn't alway do that), it allows an individual to get from A to pretty much any B without reliance on another. That won't change.
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Old 20.12.2010, 14:05
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

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Again, Overall ,Eco/Green cars are only green to run, overall, their carbon footprint is much greater and does more harm due to the manufacturing process. Don't be fooled. Driving cars is a very small part of the pollution problem.
What he said ^^

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For 100 years ... <snip>
Very true. Top Gear had a section on the Honda hydrogen cell powered car: http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/
The main point was it fitted into how we currently use cars.. drive them.. fill them up.. drive them.. etc..
Not plug in overnight, drive 20 miles, plug in again..

But extracting the Hydrogen is difficult/expensive/uses a lot of energy. Far from the perfect solution, but something for the future.
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Old 20.12.2010, 14:34
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

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There are now quite a lot of cars that will do 1000km on single tank of fuel.

.

I think this is one of the key issues. Even, if say that the average car does around 600km on a tank, the best electrics are more like 200-300km. Well, you may say, that is ok to have to "fill up" a little more often. But that is not the issue here, the issue is that it takes 5 minutes to fill up a petrol car, but 6+ hours to recharge an electric car.

I remember Nissan having done some research in respect of their new electric car, which stated that the average driver would not drive more than 80 km. anyway. But that completely ignore the main point about the car - fredom. What is the point of having an electric car for short trips, if you still need a normal one for going further.

The reality is that battery cars are outdated technology, which has become a political bandwagon.
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  #25  
Old 20.12.2010, 14:44
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

battery cars are a huge white elephant, they are as far from 'green' as you can get, producing the batteries is a very nasty business indeed, and the lifespan of the batteries is pitiful, now add to the fact you charge them from the power grid, which is already inefficient, charging batteries is also hugely inefficient, and lugging around 1 tonne of batteries every where you go isn't doing your miles per charge any good. then factor in recycling the batteries at the end, all those very nasty chemicals.

Fuel cells are the only way forward
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Old 20.12.2010, 15:17
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

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Fuel cells are the only way forward
I disagree - they are far from the ONLY way forward. Turning water into H2 and O2 and then back into H2O takes energy - that energy comes from somewhere else - and does the process of breaking H2O use more or less energy than combining them.

Energy regeneration will become important - storing and reusing braking energy - and even gear change energy (IE when you change up a gear the engine changes from 3000rpm to 2000rpm - that reduction in engine speed expels energy - if could be stored) - will be crucial. More efficient transfer for energy will add to the efficiency. Even moving away from an engine powering the drivetrain to it powering electric motors.

Storing energy is a lightweight and space efficient manner is the key.
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  #27  
Old 21.12.2010, 12:57
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

A stonking great gas guzzling V8 is the way forward right now.
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  #28  
Old 23.12.2010, 22:10
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

I am always very disheartened whenever I have to address all the electric car myths, but I'll try anyway.

Disclaimer: I work in the field.
Apology: huge wall of text, sorry about that.

1) Where does the electricity come from, or the "Long tailpipe".
Of all places in the world, Switzerland is a prime example of where EVs make perfect sense. Nuclear + hydro makes for an amazing combination of low-carbon energy source. So yes, using an EV is *so* much better for the environment, in this case.
On the other hand you would have a place like Greece where most of the energy is produced by burning coal (or whatever they get their hands on when coal is short, according to a Greek combustion engineer friend of mine). At that point the balance is pretty much equal, and it mostly depends on the fuel consumption of your ICE car.

2) Ah but it does not have the range I need!
A Nissan Leaf has 100+ km of range on a full charge, even in the worse weather conditions (very cold so you have to run the heater, or very warm so you have to run the AC). If you drive less than 100km per day on your commute, you can live with an EV. If you drive more than 100km per day, then an EV is not for you. Simple, really, but there's no need to claim that EVs are not ready for the public.

3) I heard batteries are produced by grinding baby dolphins!
Mining is dirty business, and we know this for a fact. But how about this: the fuel you burn in your car is *lost* for a very long time, at least until a tree absorbs it all and transforms it in wood. The metals in a battery can be very very VERY easily recycled, and used many times over. Also important: given the cost of the batteries, you won't see EV batteries thrown in a ditch like you see with el-cheapo lead batteries or alkalines. They won't go to the landfill, trust me.

4) What if I forget to plug my car in?
You walk or take the bus. Actually, most EVs are so gadgetful that you'll probably get a text from the car reminding you, if you really forget.
Consider this: what if you forget to fill up your tank? You walk or take the bus.
And don't even argue that a petrol station is easier to find than a power socket.

5) Pah, charging takes a lot of time anyway.
It does, indeed. However, ever considered how much time your car spends moving, and how much it spends sitting in a parking? Learn to plug in at every occasion, and you won't ever feel range anxiety.
Imagine what people were saying 100 years ago: A car? That I have to refuel? My horse refuels itself in any field!

6) I will just wait for a fuel cell version, hydrogen makes more sense
Without going into fanboi-ism, battery powered EVs are here, now, for you to buy. Fuel cell vehicles are at best 5 years away, just as they have been for the last 20 years.
You can make excuses for yourself, but it does not change the fact that if you want to take the plunge, EVs are there for you to do it.

7) You know what, I don't care after all. They are too expensive anyway.
Just as with any new piece of technology, they are expensive. I'll tell you more, they are not perfect. Not even close. But early adopters don't care about this.
It is not mass market ready yet (and in the automotive world mass market is upwards of a million pieces per year). It won't be for a couple of years at least. But by then it will probably be.

8) I want the hard facts
You can read this interesting article written by researchers at EMPA (the Swiss Research Institute for Material Science):

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es903729a

(PDF dowloadable for free) where they compare the full life cycle of two Golf-sized vehicles, one with conventional and one with electric powertrain. The result is that for an ICE powertrain to be less polluting than an EV one, it needs to use less than 3.9L/100km of gasoline (not diesel!). Does your car do that?
Please keep in mind that pollution is VERY different from CO2.

I hope this sounds reasonable and not an endless rant.
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Old 23.12.2010, 23:54
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

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[B]1) Where does the electricity come from[B], <snip> a place like Greece where most of the energy is produced by burning coal <snip>
Self answering

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2) Ah but it does not have the range I need!
<snip> If you drive more than 100km per day, then an EV is not for you. Simple, really, but there's no need to claim that EVs are not ready for the public.
Who wants a car that can only go every drive 100kms? I don't.
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3) I heard batteries are produced by grinding baby dolphins!
Mining is dirty business, and we know this for a fact. <snip>given the cost of the batteries, you won't see EV batteries thrown in a ditch like you see with el-cheapo lead batteries or alkalines. They won't go to the landfill, trust me.
Sorry, I don't buy it. Like recycled computer parts they will end up in the 3rd world for them to kill themselves recycling.
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4) What if I forget to plug my car in?
You walk or take the bus.
And this should be viewed as motoring progress??

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5) Pah, charging takes a lot of time anyway.
It does, indeed. However, ever considered how much time your car spends moving, and how much it spends sitting in a parking? Learn to plug in at every occasion, and you won't ever feel range anxiety.
Imagine what people were saying 100 years ago: A car? That I have to refuel? My horse refuels itself in any field!
This is still a backward step. Not 100years, just 75.

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6) I will just wait for a fuel cell version, hydrogen makes more sense
Without going into fanboi-ism, battery powered EVs are here, now, for you to buy. Fuel cell vehicles are at best 5 years away, just as they have been for the last 20 years.
You can make excuses for yourself, but it does not change the fact that if you want to take the plunge, EVs are there for you to do it.
But you admit they are not ready yet.

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7) You know what, I don't care after all. They are too expensive anyway.
Just as with any new piece of technology, they are expensive. I'll tell you more, they are not perfect. Not even close. But early adopters don't care about this.
It is not mass market ready yet (and in the automotive world mass market is upwards of a million pieces per year). It won't be for a couple of years at least. But by then it will probably be.
Not ready, isn't that what I wrote already some posts back?
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<snip> it needs to use less than 3.9L/100km of gasoline (not diesel!). Does your car do that?
It's getting close and in 20 years it will easily...
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  #30  
Old 24.12.2010, 14:31
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

Ah, 2011 will surely be a year for cleaner vehicles.

I'm also doing my bit. 700bhp V12 is ordered for the summer - I was swayed by the blurb telling me this new engine has far fewer g's per km than the old one. Conscience clear.

Happy Christmas!
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  #31  
Old 24.12.2010, 15:11
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

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Electric cars are being forced on the market by daft politicians thinking this is the answer to keeping the freedom of private transport and at the same time being "green".

The fact is the technology is simply not there - yet. It will be about 25 years before batteries or some form of power cell are efficient enough to power cars.

Small petrol engines are still "greener" in a dust to dust calculation...
Well, yes, I agree that they are pushed a lot by politicians. But I do not really agree to the "the technology is not there" argument. The private sector will never invest money in any developments if there is no need to do so... that is simply logic for any market economy - I only invest if I see a decent return on it.
European cars are today more fuel efficient and generally technologically superior to US products because "daft politicians" forced them to: Every few years a new emission law here, high taxes on petrol there... so in short: Whatever technology will come in the future, I think relying on the industry to come up with a solution for us is naive - they would on their own continue to sell petrol engines till the last drop of oil is used. Politicians do not only think in terms of the profit of one single sector and therefore are responsible to push for a long term solution even before it is absolutely necessary for financial reasons of the producers...

(But today in Switzerland: How much hydro electricity comes out of your plug exactly? How many windmills do you see here compared to other countries? You would simply drive on nuclear power...)
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  #32  
Old 24.12.2010, 16:52
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

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Who wants a car that can only go every drive 100kms? I don't.
Then don't buy one. It's as easy as that, really.

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Sorry, I don't buy it. Like recycled computer parts they will end up in the 3rd world for them to kill themselves recycling.
We have plenty of silicon, so we can afford to throw it out. We don't have as much cobalt or nickel, so we haveto recycle it. You don't want to believe me, fine, but the truth is that it can be done and it will be done, as it's currently done for lead-acid batteries [1]


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This is still a backward step. Not 100years, just 75.
See, this is the unreasonable part: you are asking to replace a technology with 100 years of incremental improvement [2] overnight.
I wish, but it's not happening.

Working on it, though

[1] 97% of Pb batteries are recycled, see:
http://www.batterycouncil.org/LeadAc...1/Default.aspx

[2] Admittedly most of it over the last 25 years, see Treverus' post regarding the governments forcing the car manufacturers to improve their emission records
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  #33  
Old 06.01.2011, 11:46
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

NEWS this week: Grants of up to £5,000 are going to be available in the UK for 9 cars..

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The Government drove the UK firmly into the fast lane of the electric and ultra-low emission car revolution today as Ministers unveiled nine trailblazing models that will be eligible for generous grants of up to £5,000.

Transport Secretary Philip Hammond and Business Minister Mark Prisk announced the milestone which could make 2011 the year of the electric car for the UK - and revealed five more regions that will be installing local charging points having successfully bid for a share of a £20m fund.

From January, the motoring map of the country will start to be redrawn as government and car industry work in partnership to give drivers a wide choice of clean, green transport.

The first nine cars to become eligible for eco-friendly car grants are: Mitsubishi iMiEV; smart fortwo electric drive; Peugeot iON; Citroen CZero; Nissan Leaf; Tata Vista EV; Toyota Prius Plug-in; Vauxhall Ampera and Chevrolet Volt. More will follow next year.

The grant will be available to motorists across the UK from 1 January 2011, reducing the cost of eligible cars by a quarter, up to a maximum of £5,000.
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  #34  
Old 10.01.2011, 02:43
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

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The manufacturing of these vehicles, including lightweight materials, new production lines, huge battery packs and battery factories is far from green. It is far greener to buy second hand older petrol models and run them for 8-10 years.
Exactly. Nothing is greener than a used Honda Civic or the like. Much of the premium you must pay for electric and hybrid cars is due to increased energy inputs in their manufacture.
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  #35  
Old 10.01.2011, 05:03
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

The idea of electric vehicles is appealing (at least to me) simply b/c of energy independence... from countries like saudi arabia, iraq and iran. I'd rather give my money to swiss power companies any day. I was sold on EV a long time ago.

I'm sure many of you are aware of Hubbert's peak - it's no accident the major world powers have a strong presence in the middle east and that most oil companies are spending loads of money for off-land drilling (there's no on-land oil-gushing wells left!). We're running out of cheap energy and I agree with previous posts - electric cars are just not there in terms of bang-for-your-buck.

I wouldn't be surprised that the amount of energy to power a car will require the same amount of energy to derive it's 'fuel.' We've been living in an free energy-rich world for millions of years, but we've used up all the resources in last 100.
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  #36  
Old 10.01.2011, 08:50
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

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The idea of electric vehicles is appealing (at least to me) simply b/c of energy independence... from countries like saudi arabia, iraq and iran. I'd rather give my money to swiss power companies any day. I was sold on EV a long time ago.

I'm sure many of you are aware of Hubbert's peak - it's no accident the major world powers have a strong presence in the middle east and that most oil companies are spending loads of money for off-land drilling (there's no on-land oil-gushing wells left!). We're running out of cheap energy and I agree with previous posts - electric cars are just not there in terms of bang-for-your-buck.

I wouldn't be surprised that the amount of energy to power a car will require the same amount of energy to derive it's 'fuel.' We've been living in an free energy-rich world for millions of years, but we've used up all the resources in last 100.
Yes and Switzerland aside, how does most of the world generate its electricity? By the way, electricity is not a fuel, in battery form it is 'energy transfer' - usually transferred from oil or natural gas...
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  #37  
Old 10.01.2011, 09:57
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

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Yes and Switzerland aside, how does most of the world generate its electricity? By the way, electricity is not a fuel, in battery form it is 'energy transfer' - usually transferred from oil or natural gas...
Brakes generate some of the electricity too. As it states in much literature for a new EV, some electricity is (or can be) self-reproducing.

Seeing though we live in Switzerland, as the previous posts inform us, Switzerland is an ideal country to have an EV. Surely we are going off-topic discussing how the rest of the world produces its electricity. Anyway, if an example is made in Europe & the US, like everything else the trend will follow.

In countries like China (with heavy pollution) the advantages (even on a short-term level) are huge & I am definitely against all those future generations breathing in all that rubbish, wherever it is.
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Old 10.01.2011, 11:20
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

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Brakes generate some of the electricity too. As it states in much literature for a new EV, some electricity is (or can be) self-reproducing.
If one drives continuously downhill this will work well...

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Seeing though we live in Switzerland, as the previous posts inform us, Switzerland is an ideal country to have an EV. Surely we are going off-topic discussing how the rest of the world produces its electricity. Anyway, if an example is made in Europe & the US, like everything else the trend will follow.

In countries like China (with heavy pollution) the advantages (even on a short-term level) are huge & I am definitely against all those future generations breathing in all that rubbish, wherever it is.
Just saw on BBC TV, where a guy is trying to drive from London to Edinburgh in an electric Mini (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12138420), that using the heater will cut the range by 10% - that would be ideal in Swiss winters...
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  #39  
Old 13.01.2011, 22:39
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Re: Electric Cars - Many new models coming for 2011/2

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using the heater will cut the range by 10% - that would be ideal in Swiss winters...
Or using the A/C in summer
Volvo has an interesting solution for this on their C30 electric model: they added a small cabin heater powered by ethanol.

Worst case you can get drunk if you're stuck without any juice left in your batteries
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