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  #21  
Old 24.01.2011, 21:12
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

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Hi. Here are Severin Jörg and Thomas Rastija, the founders of this project Setomat.
Thanks for the input.

And I understand how it works.

BUT, I do not want computers controlling my vehicle.

Yes, I know, most modern vehicles are computer controlled, but it is my experiences with such control that leads me to despise such control.

PEOPLE need to be responsible for their behavior, and a box that diminishes the need to control one's speed is akin to one one that does the same for being drunk.

Sorry, but this is CRAP.

Tom
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Old 24.01.2011, 21:15
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

Interesting technology.

I have problems with this, not against the concept in principle and could be quite useful. The big brother aspect worries me most.

Studies in the past stated that increasing the amount of responsibility the driver has increases awareness of road conditions not vice versa.

I could link it here but really can't be bothered and it's in a ancient thread.

So the more signs, advisories, speed cameras, gps blackboxes etc you put up/in cars the worse the drivers concentration, it reduces the feeling they have to take responsibility for their actions (as everything is autopilot and they have more distractions to scan on the road and inside the car) which means they have more accidents.

There's enough idiots watching speed limits rather than traffic conditions as it is. (Braking at speed cameras for example, where they shouldn't be exceeding the limit anyway)

"I was at the speed limit additionally does not make you a safer driver."

So if you want to have your speed regulated the you're welcome to take the train. I for one drive according to road conditions.

What if the speed over reads for road conditions, such as weather, traffic etc? Your pretty clever guys but would this work for all drivers? 80 year old pensioner for example.

What I do agree with is a useful tool to track what the speed limit is ahead as a cautionary measure not purely automatic, but these systems are nearly there from other providers.

Additionally some form of automatic speed limit imposed on persistent speeders possibly. That would be funny if a investment banker has his ferrari restricted to 40kmh in addition to paying the fine.

How much is the technology, what happens if there's no gps signal does that mean I can drive in the Gotthard at 120kmh, there's many questions.

Can you fix tailgating please? I would really love you guys if you could!
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  #23  
Old 24.01.2011, 21:20
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

If people really wanted to improve road safety they would allow European accident blackspot data to be uploaded to GPS units.

This would be very handy, and probably already exists.
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Old 24.01.2011, 21:29
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

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Hi. Here are Severin Jörg and Thomas Rastija, the founders of this project Setomat.


First of all, thx to NicM to advice our Link.

The Competition Swiss Youth in Research is an activity for young researcher about 18 to 22 years. We've done this in our free time. We don't know if it's a realistic project. Our first ambition was only to show if there is alternative to ban such drivers, not to do this commercial.

After we've done the first prototype, we found out this idea isn't new and there are other people who do research with GPS (ISA Systems). But up to yet there isn't another product for Europe and without alternatives (overtake another car, drive faster than the limit) and not all-purpose, like the Setomat.


1. WRONG! Good speed limit maps are enough good. Do not compare it with the maps from Tomtom or Garmin, that’s shit. Anyway, we have GPS reference points who tell us the correct coordinates and so we can hone the GPS system to a better accuracy than normal (5 meters).
.......................
How do you cope with variable speedlimits? There are a number of Swiss autobahn stretches where they vary the limit in real time from 80 to 100 to 120 km/h.
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Old 24.01.2011, 21:50
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

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Interesting technology.

I have problems with this, not against the concept in principle and could be quite useful. The big brother aspect worries me most.

Studies in the past stated that increasing the amount of responsibility the driver has increases awareness of road conditions not vice versa.

I could link it here but really can't be bothered and it's in a ancient thread.

So the more signs, advisories, speed cameras, gps blackboxes etc you put up/in cars the worse the drivers concentration, it reduces the feeling they have to take responsibility for their actions (as everything is autopilot and they have more distractions to scan on the road and inside the car) which means they have more accidents.

There's enough idiots watching speed limits rather than traffic conditions as it is. (Braking at speed cameras for example, where they shouldn't be exceeding the limit anyway)

"I was at the speed limit additionally does not make you a safer driver."

So if you want to have your speed regulated the you're welcome to take the train. I for one drive according to road conditions.

What if the speed over reads for road conditions, such as weather, traffic etc? Your pretty clever guys but would this work for all drivers? 80 year old pensioner for example.

What I do agree with is a useful tool to track what the speed limit is ahead as a cautionary measure not purely automatic, but these systems are nearly there from other providers.

Additionally some form of automatic speed limit imposed on persistent speeders possibly. That would be funny if a investment banker has his ferrari restricted to 40kmh in addition to paying the fine.

How much is the technology, what happens if there's no gps signal does that mean I can drive in the Gotthard at 120kmh, there's many questions.

Can you fix tailgating please? I would really love you guys if you could!
The Setomat V3 will have some additional gadgets also against tailgating and against regulation of the engine on the idling.

Hey guys, don't worry. I drive sporty too but you don't have much space on the daily trafic. It's better to do it on a race track (anneau du rhin or what else).

5041 personal injurys because of speeders, 63% in the town and charges about 650 billions CHF

So when we use this charges or a part of for these boxes (new driver and recidivist), you don't pay anymore charges, i think then it will be usefull !?
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  #26  
Old 24.01.2011, 22:07
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

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1. WRONG! Good speed limit maps are enough good.
Honestly, guys, given your age you probably don't have a whole lot of driving experience. I've been using GPS navigation since 2001 and let me tell you: Outdated maps are one of the most annoying problems with GPS units.

The only way to ensure accuracy in a timely manner would be to get all the required information directly from the relevant authorities (i.e. ASTRA, all cantons and all cities/towns!) and transmit it to the Setomat using wireless technology. This however requires a built in GSM/UMTS phone/modem and I sure as hell don't want such a potential spying device in there!

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2. With a series of measurement we verify how long do you need to overtake a lorry or a car. This standard + some seconds is enough time to overtake
And what happens if I want to pass several trucks at once?

Last edited by Mark75; 24.01.2011 at 22:27.
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Old 24.01.2011, 22:09
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

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Do you have some problems? Jealousy? You can talk with arguments but without a reason such stupid comments.......dingy. If you would truly understand the reason why it is useful, you wouldn’t talk such things.

Cheers
you have no idea who your insulting, which is even more funny then your response lol
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  #28  
Old 24.01.2011, 22:14
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

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1. WRONG! Good speed limit maps are enough good. Do not compare it with the maps from Tomtom or Garmin, that’s shit. Anyway, we have GPS reference points who tell us the correct coordinates and so we can hone the GPS system to a better accuracy than normal (5 meters).
you have better maps then the worlds largest mapping company? where did you get those from?? I'm sure you could sell them a copy. Maybe you should think before you post, your credibility is crashing through the floor

you do realise that the US government can degrade the gps accuracy at any time they want? that 5m can easily become 100m, or 200m etc etc

you can hone your signal eh? and companies like tomtom and garmin can't eh? how's that work then??

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Old 24.01.2011, 22:17
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

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So the more signs, advisories, speed cameras, gps blackboxes etc you put up/in cars the worse the drivers concentration, it reduces the feeling they have to take responsibility for their actions (as everything is autopilot and they have more distractions to scan on the road and inside the car) which means they have more accidents.
That's actually one of my main concerns. We already have plenty of what I call "Tacho-Idioten" i.e. those who religiously obey speed limits but are unable to adapt their speed to the road conditions or those who slavishly watch the speedo instead of what's going on on the road.
I've seen way too many of them on the Autobahn: First I pass them on a dry stretch with good visibility. A few kms later it gets foggy, visibility drops, me slowing down to 70 or so... guess what?!? Most of those idiots pass me now, going way too fast considering the poor visibility. I'm pretty sure that most of them would even consider themselves good and responsible drivers because they "always obey the speed limit".

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[...]against regulation of the engine on the idling.

Last edited by Mark75; 24.01.2011 at 23:08. Reason: fixed typo
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Old 24.01.2011, 23:04
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

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The Setomat V3 will have some additional gadgets also against tailgating and against regulation of the engine on the idling.

Hey guys, don't worry. I drive sporty too but you don't have much space on the daily trafic. It's better to do it on a race track (anneau du rhin or what else).

5041 personal injurys because of speeders, 63% in the town and charges about 650 billions CHF

So when we use this charges or a part of for these boxes (new driver and recidivist), you don't pay anymore charges, i think then it will be usefull !?
Hello Guys,

I think this is an interesting product and a novel idea but I suspect you might have too much variable data to implement a generic monitor. This product seems similar to what we use in IT monitoring of learning the baseline behaviour then alerting when you move a percentage outside this area. It sounds straightforward but the devil is always in the detail, the examples given such as overtaking multiple cars at the same time, the sheer number of road based variables that have to be introduced (eg getting to hospital) would require it to be extremely comprehensive in the amount of monitoring conditions it took into account before raising an alarm.

Best of luck with it if it comes through then well done, but be prepared for the fact that it might be like teaching a car to park itself: the software was written years ago but because it has to be absolutely, 100% accurate with not a single error condition, we still don't have a self parking car in production.
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  #31  
Old 25.01.2011, 00:01
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

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you have better maps then the worlds largest mapping company? where did you get those from?? I'm sure you could sell them a copy. Maybe you should think before you post, your credibility is crashing through the floor

you do realise that the US government can degrade the gps accuracy at any time they want? that 5m can easily become 100m, or 200m etc etc

you can hone your signal eh? and companies like tomtom and garmin can't eh? how's that work then??

I'm sorry I'm owt
Oh come on, whats your problem? Did you do the setomat and invent more than a year for the technology?

After de selective availability is the accuracy of the navstar GPS system lesser than 10 meters. With differential GPS you can catch up an accurancy ub to some centimeters:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differe...tioning_System

You can buy a GPS with a better accuracy than 5 meter which use DGPS. But when you need a better accuracy than 5 meters you need a device with a SIM receiver to get the coordinates of the fixpoints. Now, why Garmin and Tomtom don't use this tecnology? Simple, they don't need it and it's to expensive (for a mass product about 150 CHF). But comparatively for the setomat it's cheap. And, normaly 5 meters is enough for our system, we only need some fixpoints for freeway entrances and there we've done an own map.

And yes thats right, the US government can control the GPS Accuracy, but why should they downgrad the system against the setomat?

Oooooooops 0:1 for me - wisenheimer

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Sorry, wrong expression. I mean when a car is waiting in front of a trafic light and do this noises:



Other comments:

Our software connsider tunnels and you can drive too when you dont have a GPS signal
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  #32  
Old 25.01.2011, 00:25
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

Experienced drivers above have explained why they do not think it is a good idea to directly control the vehicle speed.

But I would reccomend you go ahead with your idea but do not control the engine directly. Maybe you could play some
really bad music until the car is slowed down to the legal limit, & then to resume with some nice music again.

Last edited by Ittigen; 25.01.2011 at 01:20.
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  #33  
Old 25.01.2011, 01:05
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

I am glad that you found a project that interested you. However, you will have to deal with a lot of opposition in order to sell this to any public, even one made up of rule fetishist Swiss.

When somebody coasts down a hill and therefore exceeds the speed limit, will your limiter box retard the timing and kill the idling engine? (of course this removes the power breaks and steering, making things harder, right when you are doing something silly) Maybe you thought of that one, but it has happened.

When a low speed road runs under and parallel to a high speed highway, can your box tell which it is on? Now suppose that the highway interferes with GPS and/or cell phone reception.

You've pretty much admitted that you need a continuous cell connection for differential gps to work. What happens when somebody doesn't pay the bill associated with that sim card? And what happens when there is no cell coverage?

What happens when hackers, or the police, dial up the number and ask for position reports and/or load fake map data into the phone? What happens in tunnels, or even between tall buildings?

My handheld "high sensistivity" gps often looses signal when I put it in my pocket, will yours keep signal with 6cm of snow on the roof?

Maybe you have thought of all of these things, and have answers ready. But I could go on, and the real question is what might happen that nobody has thought of?

Have you posted your idea to comp.risks? It has a lot of people for whom analyzing such risks is part of their profession. If you aren't acquainted with it, I suggest you read some of their past articles to understand how they think before you decide how to present yourself. But they will give real feedback if you ask nicely and seem to have done your homework.

One last question though. What effect will a GPS jammer have on this device? Put the car into unlimited mode, making them gotta have devices for for joyriders? What are the implications of the joy rider unrestricting neighboring cars? (while passing)

Or do they put the car into some sort of low speed mode, which would make them a popular "prank" device, especially for people who had cars too old to have a limiter. It would be a great passing aid for your classic car!
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  #34  
Old 25.01.2011, 02:39
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

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Oh come on, whats your problem? Did you do the setomat and invent more than a year for the technology?

And yes thats right, the US government can control the GPS Accuracy, but why should they downgrad the system against the setomat?

Oooooooops 0:1 for me - wisenheimer
Remarks like these are ok for a online video game competiton, but not when you are proposing a complex system that is intended to improve road safety.

Even though you might get criticism you feel is unfair, listen to it instead of summarily dismissing stuff you dont agree with. You may think that your idea is excellent, but taking feedback should never be personal for a good engineer, and should end up improving their engineering. Remember Murphy's law, and that the devil is always in the details.
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  #35  
Old 25.01.2011, 07:33
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

I wish you all the luck in the world, I think you have your costs wrong, eg map licence, os licence, a way to upgrade to keep up to date, and the fact every car will need a different way to control it (and the fact some manufacturers won't allow 3rd party devices to be attached ton there cars, eg Porsche) as for you costs of crashes, this won't save any money, most crashes are not down to outright speeding, they are caused by inappropriate speed, which this device can't do anything about, someone will need to pay for it, pay to install it and pay to run it. And finally you don't have a patent for it, so like it or not you'll need to pay the patent holder to licence it.

I suggest you lookup the story of the guy who invented a hazard warning 4 way flasher, spent £50k developing it without doing any research only to find he wasted his time and money
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  #36  
Old 25.01.2011, 07:51
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

I would also suggest you watch a uk tv program "dragons den" that should open your eyes a little bit
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Old 25.01.2011, 08:21
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

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I would reccomend you go ahead with your idea but do not control the engine directly. Maybe you could play some
really bad music until the car is slowed down to the legal limit, & then to resume with some nice music again.
Yes, I agree completely, just give an audible warning, do NOT try to control the vehicle.

Then you may have something useful.

Tom
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  #38  
Old 25.01.2011, 08:57
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

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5041 personal injurys because of speeders, 63% in the town and charges about 650 billions CHF

Please qualify these figures 650bn is probably just under the gross national product of Switzerland? I'd say speeders have a lot to answer for if thats the case.

Towns are always more dangerous tell us something new.

8m people in CH, 5041 injuries it's like hitting a nail in with a sledgehammer dont you think? Go after drunks.
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Old 25.01.2011, 10:00
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

Ok some questions

who is your target audience for this product? are you expecting people to buy it for themselves just as a fail safe? or are you hoping the government pick it up and force people to install it, or force all new cars to have it?

The very people who cause the most accidents (young people) are the very people who can easily disable the device (gps is extremely easy to jam its signal, even most modern windscreens block the signal) so what happens when the device can't get a gps signal?

How are you intending to get the cars current speed? gps or directly from the cars computer (obd2)

what happens with cars that still have a throttle cable? how are you going to limit there speed? cut the fuel? what about older cars that aren't computer controlled?? just keep cutting the fuel when they reach 120kph is going to do them damage, sound terrible, and pollute like hell

And of course the show stopper (sorry) the government make a hell of a lot of money from speeders, 1 ticket will pay for those 2 police, sitting at the end of that 80kph to 50kph marker, shift for that day. that's a big pot of money they will lose, and installing your system will actually cost them money with no return.

as for the "why would the US degrade the gps signal" well in times of conflict they do, and they can do for any reason they please, at any time.

I know gps can be made "more accurate" one of my cars has a calarion system built it, which has gyroscopes, tmc and connects to the cars speedo, its very accurate indeed, but costs 3000chf and was custom made for that make and model of car, and also costs 500euro to update the maps.

Just about all gps's available today have an overspeed warning already.

as for the tailgating 'feature' I suggest you look at this video

a company that has spent millions trying to get the system working.
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Old 25.01.2011, 10:37
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Re: Speed Control (Setomat)

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How do you cope with variable speedlimits? There are a number of Swiss autobahn stretches where they vary the limit in real time from 80 to 100 to 120 km/h.
I did not see any reply to my comment?
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