Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Transportation/driving  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 05.07.2011, 11:04
jot's Avatar
jot jot is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Kt ZH
Posts: 275
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 200 Times in 111 Posts
jot has a reputation beyond reputejot has a reputation beyond reputejot has a reputation beyond reputejot has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

I know this is a bit of a "I used to know a person, who knew a person..." longshot, but I used to work in Basel with a guy whose wife worked for a bicycle campaign organisation and was very active in such cases of improving visibility and road safety of cyclists... I will try to find out her details and let you know, summerrain.

Edit: this is the organisation she works for: Pro Velo. The Basel branch can be found here: http://www.provelo-beiderbasel.ch/
Maybe it is worth contacting them with any proposals.

Particularly relevant from: http://www.provelo-beiderbasel.ch/index.php?ds=2

Gefährliche Stellen?

Kennen Sie eine für Velofahrende gefährliche Stelle im Strassenverkehr? Schreiben oder telefonieren Sie uns! Wir sind sehr daran interessiert.

Last edited by jot; 05.07.2011 at 11:29. Reason: added some details...
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank jot for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 05.07.2011, 11:27
resident
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
...there is nothing to say you have to creep up the inside to get to the end of the lane, especially if there is a lorry there.
If you can not get into the line of sight of the vehicle ahead safely, then best to stay back and lose a few seconds on your trip.
I went there with other EFers yesterday and had a look, trying to understand what happened.

This is a reasonably wide, clearly marked official cycle lane. It The stop point is designed so that you are visible to any vehicle stopped behind the white line. Any bus, car, van - in fact, 99% of vehicles, would clearly see a cyclist there. That is how it's supposed to work. All visual cues impart a feeling of safety and encourage cyclists to securely move up to the front. There is no creeping forward.

I agree, one can be super ultra careful. But if there is more cycle traffic (9am) and you stop behind a truck, just in case the driver cannot see you, you will incur the ire of other cycle lane users.

- The trap is of course, high-cab trucks. But remember, most high-cab trucks have windows that go very far down. It's only trucks with smaller windows that pose a danger.

So: you would need to go all the way up to the line and then look back to establish whether you can be seen by the driver. If not, you need to go back again behind the truck. Possibly fighting your way past cyclists already stopped behind you.

Or you make it a rule to always stop behind any larger vehicle(s), on the off chance that they cannot see down, and piss other cyclists off. If you are going to be this careful, I would just jump off my bike and go under the subway. There are steps and a ramp on both sides.

I still say the design of that intersection is faulty.

Last edited by resident; 05.07.2011 at 11:48.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 05.07.2011, 11:38
summerrain's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,350
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 985 Times in 325 Posts
summerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
Ok summerrain so I checked out that light this morning and it is how I thought. The cycle light goes green and then 2-3 seconds later the traffic light for the cars goes amber then green so in all the cyclest should have around 5-6 seconds head start of the cars. Also the cycle lane in this case is ahead of the cars as is the case at Beggas junction.

It is every persons right to send a petition to get something changed in Switzerland, you do not have to be a voter.
more information also the office of Federal Department of Environment, Transport, Energy and Communications (DETEC) and specifically the Federal Roads Office is probably the best place to send the petition too. They are required by law to read all petitions however they are not required to give a response.

Here is the name and address for the person in charge:

Dr. Peter Füglistaler, director of the Federal Office of Transport
Federal Roads Office
Address
3003 Berne

Phone: 031 322 94 11
Fax: 031 323 23 03
E-mail: info@astra.admin.ch
Internet: http://www.astra.admin.ch

I hope this helps
Yes, very very helpful - thank you travnett. Just to clarify, I didnt see any cycle lights at Begga's junction. The cycle lights you are referring to must be the other junction you were talking about yes?

If this has already been done for that junction, its definitely worthwhile appealing to them to install one for this one as well.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 05.07.2011, 11:45
resident
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
Firstly, it's my impression that bus drivers in London, like the car drivers themselves, are more aggressive as they have to deal with a greater volume of traffic plus much longer distances.
I recall a radio discussion on the problem. A point mentioned was that in London, the tendency is to have railings around the pavements at intersections to stop pedestrians running across.

But for cyclists and articulated vehicles that swing over, they are a death trap because they get squeezed against them and cannot escape.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #65  
Old 05.07.2011, 11:47
Peg A's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 4,422
Groaned at 158 Times in 125 Posts
Thanked 5,428 Times in 2,510 Posts
Peg A has a reputation beyond reputePeg A has a reputation beyond reputePeg A has a reputation beyond reputePeg A has a reputation beyond reputePeg A has a reputation beyond reputePeg A has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

As I've neither driven a motorized vehicle nor ridden a bicycle here, I can not say what sorts of guidelines are given to help people keep themselves and others secure. One of the things I do remember from my driving manuals back in the day is that you should try to keep in mind that if you can not see a truck's mirrors when driving behind them, they can not see you. If you can not see the driver's face if you look into his mirrors, he can not see you (very well).

I do not point this out to try to place any blame on cyclists but rather, to ask if perhaps the position of the bike lane makes it "impossible" to ensure that you can do these checks, either as a driver or a cyclist?

The intersection at Kannenfeldplatz has had a number of auto vs cyclist accidents as well (including a fatal one fairly recently) and in that spot, the right turning traffic has it's own lane apart from the going straight traffic. NOW there is a brightly painted red and yellow bicycle lane next to the straight traffic, to help everyone approaching the spot be VERY aware of their need to be vigilant.

Hopefully, at the very least, some similarly garish paint scheme can be slapped onto the street at that intersection as well in some effort to reduce the danger spot there.
__________________
The Joys of Opticianry
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 05.07.2011, 11:51
Bertrand - Geneva
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Making roads safer

I just wrote to the "reader's corners" of my newspaper. As I said somewhere else, this tragic death has also happened in Geneva, several months ago, with the same kind of truck and I believe it will happen again.

I just hope that people will read it, and keep it in a "corner" of their mind, so next time they will take they bicycle and ride by the side of such trucks, they will remember it and be careful.

I hope it will be read by some truck drivers and that they will be careful, turning right.

I hope it will be read by some people from the town, and that they will think to do something, so this tragic death won't happen again.

It's just hope, I know. But that's all what I can do.


Editing : I've got an answer from the newspaper. it will be published

Last edited by Bertrand - Geneva; 05.07.2011 at 20:35. Reason: got answer from the newspaper
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #67  
Old 05.07.2011, 11:51
adrianlondon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 9,131
Groaned at 170 Times in 153 Posts
Thanked 25,643 Times in 6,892 Posts
adrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
I went there with other EFers yesterday and had a look, trying to understand what happened.
Based on a hypothetical situation, as I've not cycled that particular junction ...

1. If I knew the phasing of the traffic lights and knew they weren't going to go green soon, I'd undertake the lorry and stop at the front of the cycle lane.

2. If the lights were soon to go green, or I didn't know the cycle of the lights, I'd stop behind the lorry. Sod the other cyclists - they can overtake me and feel smart. If the lorry was indicating right I'd over take it on the left.

3. If a lorry pulled up close behind me I'd move forward (i.e. over the white line but obviously not into oncoming traffic).

4. If for whatever reason I was really freaked out by it all (never happened yet) I'd cycle and turn right and get out of the way.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank adrianlondon for this useful post:
  #68  
Old 05.07.2011, 11:56
luminousmind08's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Little o, Zürich
Posts: 691
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 354 Times in 200 Posts
luminousmind08 has a reputation beyond reputeluminousmind08 has a reputation beyond reputeluminousmind08 has a reputation beyond reputeluminousmind08 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

Hi summer,

thanks for taking the initiative. I went up to the intersection yesterday to light a candle. There seems to be no easy fix, and I can easily see how it could lead to tragedy. In Oerlikon I see a lot of bike lanes that are in the middle of the two car lanes, but that creates problems as well.

When driving, I will be much more diligent checking my blind spot when I turn right. Can only imagine how much more dangerous it would be if you could turn right on a red light like back home.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank luminousmind08 for this useful post:
  #69  
Old 05.07.2011, 12:55
17clarence's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Geneva
Posts: 767
Groaned at 15 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 965 Times in 440 Posts
17clarence has a reputation beyond repute17clarence has a reputation beyond repute17clarence has a reputation beyond repute17clarence has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
This is a reasonably wide, clearly marked official cycle lane.
Correct however trucks in the inside lane are very wide and possibly / likely to infringe on the cycle way. Especially if in the left hand lane there is a van or a car not on the far left. It's normally mirror to mirror there just with cars.
Quote:
View Post
The stop point is designed so that you are visible to any vehicle stopped behind the white line. Any bus, car, van - in fact, 99% of vehicles, would clearly see a cyclist there. That is how it's supposed to work. All visual cues impart a feeling of safety and encourage cyclists to securely move up to the front. There is no creeping forward.
Unless are two or three bikes back from the front, then you may not be visible to a big lorry, and this is probably not obvious when you are cycling up to the junction.
By creeping forward, I meant squeezing up the inside of a lorry, possibly one foot down kind of thing.
Quote:
View Post
I agree, one can be super ultra careful. But if there is more cycle traffic (9am) and you stop behind a truck, just in case the driver cannot see you, you will incur the ire of other cycle lane users.
Correct but balls to them
Quote:
View Post
The trap is of course, high-cab trucks. But remember, most high-cab trucks have windows that go very far down. It's only trucks with smaller windows that pose a danger.
Unless the driver doesn't do his checks correctly when moving off, or his mirror is damaged, talking to his mate etc. In the UK, the skip lorry drivers are paid per pick-up, that's why they are always racing around and running people off the road. Not that I'm saying this was the case here.
Quote:
View Post
So: you would need to go all the way up to the line and then look back to establish whether you can be seen by the driver. If not, you need to go back again behind the truck. Possibly fighting your way past cyclists already stopped behind you.
That is not a realistic scenario
Quote:
View Post
Or you make it a rule to always stop behind any larger vehicle(s), on the off chance that they cannot see down, and piss other cyclists off.
Better safe than sorry, and that's what I do (most of the time).
Quote:
View Post
If you are going to be this careful, I would just jump off my bike and go under the subway. There are steps and a ramp on both sides.
The safest option, but probably not required 99.99% of the time.
Quote:
View Post
I still say the design of that intersection is faulty.
It's the standard design. As you pointed out, they seem to have done what they can with it bar having lights just for the bikes.

To be honest, and I'm sorry to come over as opinionated, and I certainly don't want to be in disagreement with Resident or anyone over this, and we need to wait for the police report, but you can only look after yourself, no-one else will, traffic regulations or not. If that means being ultra-careful then so be it.
In virtually every traffic accident that ever happens, a law/rule has been broken.
Blaming the junction for what is very, very likely to be human error or just tragic circumstances is incorrect.
A line painted on the road is not really guaranteeing anyone's safety, it's just a guide and gives an ultimately false sense of security.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank 17clarence for this useful post:
  #70  
Old 05.07.2011, 13:07
Lou's Avatar
Lou Lou is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,778
Groaned at 9 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 3,227 Times in 1,474 Posts
Lou has a reputation beyond reputeLou has a reputation beyond reputeLou has a reputation beyond reputeLou has a reputation beyond reputeLou has a reputation beyond reputeLou has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

On the BBC Breakfast news about about 2 weeks ago they showed a new system of cameras linked to a video screen that is specifically designed to show any cyclists hidden in the blind spots. One haulage firm was planning to retrofit them to all of their trucks at a cost of about GBP700 per truck. Of course the representative from the Haulage industry was against the idea.

Quote:
View Post
On my car I have these electronic sensors for parking. My car has them in the front, back and even on the sides. Why don't big trucks have sensors like this all the way around to detect for cyclists and things like that ? Cannot be too expensive compared to the price of the truck...

Maybe when sensors like this are made mandatory accidents like Begga's can be avoided...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Lou for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 05.07.2011, 13:25
resident
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
...I checked out that light this morning and it is how I thought. The cycle light goes green and then 2-3 seconds later the traffic light for the cars goes amber then green so in all the cyclest should have around 5-6 seconds head start of the cars....
I just saw the above quote from travnett now. Thanks, it didn't occur to me to look at that whilst I was there.

But it just deepens the mystery.

The road is full of red and yellow markings recording the accident. I wish I understood the hieroglyphs. Yellow ones also exist way out of the accident area, so perhaps those are other cars/people. If so, there were many witnesses.

Does anyone know the standard way the Basler Police release investigation reports to the public (if at all)?
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 05.07.2011, 13:29
resident
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
The intersection at Kannenfeldplatz has had a number of auto vs cyclist accidents ... NOW there is a brightly painted red and yellow bicycle lane next to the straight traffic...

Hopefully, at the very least, some similarly garish paint scheme can be slapped onto the street at that intersection...
Actually, the tar is very wavy from heat and is probably due for repair soon.

Would be an opportunity to do just that, at minimal additional cost.

If anyone is doing any petitioning to those in authority, this might be an idea worth mentioning.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 05.07.2011, 13:30
BasP72's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Adliswil (close to Zurich)
Posts: 1,932
Groaned at 89 Times in 43 Posts
Thanked 1,785 Times in 852 Posts
BasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
that wouldn't work, the poles of the traffic lights, bins, general road furniture etc etc would set them off and so the drivers would just ignore them,
I don't see this as prohibitive, just means it needs to be a more advanced system. Maybe ultrasonic distance sensors combined with infrared (to make sure the sensed object has higher temp than surroundings).
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 05.07.2011, 13:33
BasP72's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Adliswil (close to Zurich)
Posts: 1,932
Groaned at 89 Times in 43 Posts
Thanked 1,785 Times in 852 Posts
BasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
On the BBC Breakfast news about about 2 weeks ago they showed a new system of cameras linked to a video screen that is specifically designed to show any cyclists hidden in the blind spots. One haulage firm was planning to retrofit them to all of their trucks at a cost of about GBP700 per truck. Of course the representative from the Haulage industry was against the idea.
Here in CH all it would need to make a system like this mandatory is the collection of 100000 or so signatures and a referendum with a positive outcome...
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 05.07.2011, 13:35
resident
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
...A line painted on the road is not really guaranteeing anyone's safety, it's just a guide and gives an ultimately false sense of security.
On this point I'm with you.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 05.07.2011, 13:36
bigblue2's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glarus
Posts: 8,082
Groaned at 484 Times in 403 Posts
Thanked 14,715 Times in 5,780 Posts
bigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
I don't see this as prohibitive, just means it needs to be a more advanced system. Maybe ultrasonic distance sensors combined with infrared (to make sure the sensed object has higher temp than surroundings).

still wouldn't work, what about when a car passes? that would trigger it, also what about the summer when the pavement etc will be hotter then a person, you'd need summer and winter settings, at what speed does the system trigger? so it would need to be connected to the lorries ecu etc all extra costs for a system that still imho wouldn't stop anything happening
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 05.07.2011, 13:56
BasP72's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Adliswil (close to Zurich)
Posts: 1,932
Groaned at 89 Times in 43 Posts
Thanked 1,785 Times in 852 Posts
BasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
still wouldn't work, what about when a car passes? that would trigger it, also what about the summer when the pavement etc will be hotter then a person, you'd need summer and winter settings, at what speed does the system trigger? so it would need to be connected to the lorries ecu etc all extra costs for a system that still imho wouldn't stop anything happening
I don't see how a smart system cannot take all these things into account. I mean, a 200 chf camera comes with face recognition, smile detection and what not. It won't prevent all accidents but every life saved counts
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 05.07.2011, 14:05
bigblue2's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glarus
Posts: 8,082
Groaned at 484 Times in 403 Posts
Thanked 14,715 Times in 5,780 Posts
bigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
I don't see how a smart system cannot take all these things into account. I mean, a 200 chf camera comes with face recognition, smile detection and what not. It won't prevent all accidents but every life saved counts

agreed, but camera's have been developed over many many years by many companies and had billions invested to get to where they are today, a bike recognition system wouldn't get that level of investment and there wouldn't be any money to make.

on top of that you'd have drivers thinking the system was fool proof and wouldn't bother looking at all
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 05.07.2011, 14:14
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy Wellies
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 8,729
Groaned at 53 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 9,942 Times in 3,654 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
Does anyone know the standard way the Basler Police release investigation reports to the public (if at all)?
Basel police release reports here, but I don't think they include any investigation reports.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank mirfield for this useful post:
  #80  
Old 05.07.2011, 14:23
BasP72's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Adliswil (close to Zurich)
Posts: 1,932
Groaned at 89 Times in 43 Posts
Thanked 1,785 Times in 852 Posts
BasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond reputeBasP72 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Making roads safer

Quote:
View Post
on top of that you'd have drivers thinking the system was fool proof and wouldn't bother looking at all
This is the big danger, I agree
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Best Roads in Switzerland? NickH Travel/day trips/free time 17 18.03.2011 16:37
Kabul 'safer for children than many Western cities' Upthehatters2008 International affairs/politics 11 23.11.2010 02:44
Cycling Roads Velo Transportation/driving 18 12.07.2010 18:36
One lane roads 10:30 Transportation/driving 20 14.06.2010 08:31
How can women feel safer? gata Daily life 152 13.05.2010 23:45


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0