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  #101  
Old 08.07.2011, 11:31
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Re: Making roads safer

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I also noticed that when I went to see the site. The white lines guiding the traffic to the right would make it seem, to a driver not used to that junction and who probably was already on top of the arrow markings on the road further back, that this was a right-turn lane.
The markings are crap anyway, since the left hand lane (toward the centre of the road) is actually for turning right. No-one should be following the white curved line.
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  #102  
Old 08.07.2011, 11:35
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Re: Making roads safer

The curving white lanes takes the "two lanes". It's quite dangerous I think.
They should have a "straight street" and a "turning right street", there's enough space on the street for that.

(not sure to be very clear on this one...)

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  #103  
Old 08.07.2011, 11:39
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Re: Making roads safer

The difference curbstones would make is that other traffic will be less prone to cut the corner when turning right as they are almost invited to in this situation. Look where the cyclists have to stop. (And separate lights for bikes is even better, although more expensive.)

As for the space required, it works in the Netherlands which can be a tadd crowded now and then, so why wouldn't it work here. A smart layout doesn't need more space.

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I don't like separate cycle lanes That's a personal thing though, as I cycle defensively and prefer to be thought of as part of the traffic rather than separate from it.

Anyway, if the cycle lane in this instance was separated by a kerbstone what difference would it make? The kerb would stop at the junction, and the traffic turning right would still turn right. In fact, as the cyclists would be separated by the kerbstone many drivers would think of them as part of the pavement/pedestrian mass and hence not even look before turning right. That would then need separate traffic lights just for bikes.

We have the above at a junction in London now and I totally hate it. Traffic goes straight on but bikes (not me, I'm on the road pissing off the drivers) have to wait. The car lights go red, and the bike lights go green. However, as soon as the cars stop pedestrians walk out over the bike lane as they assume they'll get the green light to cross any second. Cue shouting peds, and shouting cyclists. It's a mess. Most cities aren't empty enough to have THREE (motorised traffic, bicyclists, pedestrians) independent thoroughfares.
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  #104  
Old 08.07.2011, 11:41
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Re: Making roads safer

Your solutions mentioned are interesting, but that's actually a relatively narrow street and definitely no room for a turning lane.
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  #105  
Old 08.07.2011, 12:52
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Re: Making roads safer

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If the car is in the position shown, priority is irrelevant; you don't have a safe way through. The way is blocked. You must stop and wait. Just as a car would.
if the situation was like on the picture, you simply can't go on the right side as there is no place.

besides that, simply common sense tells you, you should jump into other vehicle in movement trayectory, whether you have or not priority.

But the point that was made before is what the swiss road code establishes.

In case of accident, the vehicle maneuvering for parking has no priority and would be on the wrong.
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  #106  
Old 08.07.2011, 14:37
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Re: Making roads safer

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This is a solution I've seen in the UK where they put a "protected" cyclist box at the front of the junction to stop the issues. These are becoming more common in UK cities.

Sorry for the poor picture (right) but you get the idea.

We have these in Ireland too, but in my experience (in Ireland) cars ignore the fact that they're supposed to wait behind and drive into them to wait for the lights.

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So apparently this extended cycle lane at this dangerous crossing was introduced at the insistence of the Velo Verein. (source: one of the comments on the Basler Zeitung)

One can only say it was well-intended, but not fully thought through.
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The curving white lanes takes the "two lanes". It's quite dangerous I think.
They should have a "straight street" and a "turning right street", there's enough space on the street for that.

(not sure to be very clear on this one...)

I regularly cycle through this intersection on my way to work, and I've never thought that it was particularly dangerous but I'll certainly be extra careful from now on. If I remember correctly the left hand lane is only for left-turning traffic, all other traffic is supposed to be in the right-hand lane.

On a general note, I'm surprised no-one has brought up the issue of hand-signals by bicyclists yet. I rarely see anyone here (Basel) give a proper hand-signal and I've never, ever seen anyone give a "going straight on" signal. Sure some people do this pathetic hand-wave that's more like a signal to stop than for a turn. Obviously, in cases where visibility is an issue then no signal is going to help but I'm convinced that alot of other accidents/near-misses would be averted if cyclists bothered to give strong signals (in time!) of their intentions. Does anyone know if learning to recognise hand-signals of a cyclist is part of the curriculum for the driving test here? my colleague who I share an office with has just said he wouldn't recognise a "going straight on" sign but I guess he did his test quite some time ago.
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  #107  
Old 10.07.2011, 00:28
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Re: Making roads safer

Hi,

I confess to not having read all five pages of posts on this thread..so apologies if I am repeating something.

I cycle to work each day - only a 5 minute ride - and I have to cross this junction ( link here ) on the way to the office.

I've been cycling a long time, plus I'm a driver and I follow the Highway Code - but that junction scares the willies out of me each time. To get across the tram line legally at the correct angle to go straight ahead, you actually have to force your way into the middle of the lane - and trying to do that at 8am when you have impatient white-van-men or truck drivers behind is basically a game of chicken.

I came a cropper once on that tram line and luckily there were no cars up my @rse end (unusual for ZH) and nowadays I either ride around the tram line or go across to the pavement before I reach that junction. Illegal maybe but I'd rather pay a fine than get squished and leave my family without a breadwinner.

I have no idea about the circumstances of Begga's accident, but honestly the way is to have proper cycle lanes like they do in the Netherlands - completely separated from motorised traffic.

Cheers,
Nick
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  #108  
Old 10.07.2011, 00:40
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Re: Remembering Begga

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This is terrible. It is very likely the lorry driver just did not see her in his mirror. And as you say, it is likely to happen again. So yes, it must be flagged up and something done. Hopefully the police investigators will come to that same conclusion before another accident occurs.

Wolli what would you advise?
To bad you did not ask me But I would say ,before anyone can obtain a Drivers license ,he/she has to drive 200 hr on a bicycle

Last edited by cannut; 10.07.2011 at 02:12.
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  #109  
Old 12.07.2011, 10:17
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Re: Making roads safer

Whilst sorting out the candles last night, I spoke to someone who had been at the scene of the accident about 1/2 hour after it happened.

According to him, a witness said there were 3 cyclists. A guy in front (who the truck would have seen), then Begga, in the blind spot, and another guy behind Begga (who the driver possibly might have seen in his mirror).

The front guy rode off. Perhaps the truck driver saw the guy behind, waiting, and based on this, thought he was all clear to turn right.
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  #110  
Old 13.07.2011, 11:03
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Re: Making roads safer

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Pro Velo. The Basel branch can be found here: http://www.provelo-beiderbasel.ch/
Maybe it is worth contacting them with any proposals.[/I]
I've sent them an email, with a follow up email - called them and always got their voicemail.

DOESNT ANYONE WORK THERE?
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  #111  
Old 13.07.2011, 12:54
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Re: Making roads safer

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I've sent them an email, with a follow up email - called them and always got their voicemail.

DOESNT ANYONE WORK THERE?
Like any small charity/action group, they are run by volunteers who have the inconvenience of having day jobs, families etc on the side.

If you want to contribute, why don't you consider joining them?
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  #112  
Old 13.07.2011, 13:18
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Re: Remembering Begga

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To bad you did not ask me But I would say ,before anyone can obtain a Drivers license ,he/she has to drive 200 hr on a bicycle
Thanks, an excellent idea. However my question was more on the lines of communicating concerns about this and other similar junctions, to the police. And also having the necessary language skills and contacts to find out what the police conclusions are- and also checking that this IS being followed up properly. Begga's accident and demise was a terrible tragedy, but if it can help put pressure on those that can make improvements for the future... small comfort perhaps, but it would help somehow.
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  #113  
Old 13.07.2011, 13:46
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Re: Remembering Begga

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To bad you did not ask me But I would say ,before anyone can obtain a Drivers license ,he/she has to drive 200 hr on a bicycle
That's one idea, but when I cycled in London it wasn't the cars or lorries* that annoyed me but other cyclists. Many had no clue. So maybe we also need a cycling licence which stipulates that they must also have driven 200 hours in a car. Catch 22

* I exclude taxis, as their drivers are not human.
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  #114  
Old 14.07.2011, 10:00
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Re: Making roads safer

This has been my hobby horse for some time: A "driver's license light" for cyclists. Mandatory.

Learn basic rules of the road including the finer points of right-of-way, and a focus on defensive cycling. Shouldn't need more than two evenings, one theory and one practical.

Schools can cover the same material in their curriculum.

What I have seen cyclists do in Basel makes my hair stand on end. And I'm talking about older cyclists that should know better, not kids.
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  #115  
Old 14.07.2011, 10:56
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Re: Making roads safer

I still have ny cycling proficiency badge somewhere!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_Proficiency_Test
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  #116  
Old 15.07.2011, 09:54
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Re: Making roads safer

Oh, right! Yeah, exactly like that.
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