Rear wheel drive in snow? - Page 3

AntZ · #41 02.09.2011, 12:44

From my experience, I think you need a blend of driver skill and proper equipment to stay out of trouble. When I first learned to drive back in the early 80's, it was in the family Lincoln Continental with a 7.5l engine. When ever it rained and the roads became slick, that car would spin if you gave it too much gas around corners. Very quickly, you develop the feel for the road and can make the car do what you need without driving slow.

Over here in Switzerland, my wife and I just happened to buy an Audi Quattro and we fell in love with the security in brings in the bad weather. I would force the limits on that car and it always stayed in control, I did also run Continental Winter tires on it. Now we traded that in for a Skoda Superb 4X4 (that runs the same system as the Audi) and that car is just as enjoyable to drive in the worst weather. During some harsh snow storms last winter, I was driving around cars spinning their front or back wheels at almost every street corner.

We also have a hi horse power Dodge 4X4 SUV, I just run the stock GoodYear sport utility tires during the winter. And in the last 6 winters, nothing has stopped that vehicle from getting down the road! Ice, slush, or heavy snow, that just bull dozes along any road without the use of dedicated winter tires!

EarME · #42 02.09.2011, 12:57

If you really want to be safe I think this may fit the bill. Very good to clear the drive.
http://army-uk.info/equip.php?ID=293

rob1 · #43 02.09.2011, 18:12

	Quote:	AntZ
	. Now we traded that in for a Skoda Superb 4X4 (that runs the same system as the Audi)

Are you sure? Skoda uses the most basic haldex clutch system..... the car is not realy 4wd in the true sense. Its fwd and when the front wheels loose traction drive is also transfered to the rear.

clever marketing and lack of info in the brochures does give the impression its a full time 4dw when it is not.

i considered buying the 4x4 model until i found the truth

the yeti has an option to engage 4wd all the time, all other models use the 1st gen haldex system

J_T · #44 02.09.2011, 19:41

	Quote:	AntZ
	We also have a hi horse power Dodge 4X4 SUV,

...not white, perchance?

AntZ · #45 03.09.2011, 01:06

	Quote:	rob1
	Are you sure? Skoda uses the most basic haldex clutch system..... the car is not realy 4wd in the true sense. Its fwd and when the front wheels loose traction drive is also transfered to the rear. clever marketing and lack of info in the brochures does give the impression its a full time 4dw when it is not. i considered buying the 4x4 model until i found the truth the yeti has an option to engage 4wd all the time, all other models use the 1st gen haldex system

I was never under the illusion that the car was a dedicated 4 wheel drive vehicle. I owned an A6 Sport Quattro, and now the Superb, after driving almost 30 years and logging over a million miles, I can tell you with certainty that both cars handled and performed the same in both winter and summer driving.

From what I've read, most all the variations of the Haldex systems are frontwheel drive until the rears are required. The generational steps have been improvements in the sensors and speed in which the rears are engaged.

	Quote:
	"Haldex LSC" refers to the coupling system — its most prominent uses are in all transverse engine 4x4 models of the Volvo Cars and the Volkswagen Group marques: Audi (A3, S3 and TT), Bugatti, SEAT, Škoda, and Volkswagen (Golf), making them non-permanent 4x4s, unlike longitudinal engine models (Audi A4, A6, A8, previous-Volkswagen Passat), which use a Torsen centre differential. However, its short reaction time (only a seventh of a wheel spin) relative to systems like a viscous coupling, and ability to fully lock mitigate its theoretical disadvantage to a full-time 4WD (like Torsen) setup. The Haldex LSC has been used in 4WD models of Volkswagen by the name "4motion", and Audi cars under the name of "quattro". The same labels have also been applied to Torsen-based, permanent full-time 4WD systems from both Volkswagen and Audi, which has led to confusion, and some heated debate as to the relative merits of each system. This is due to confusion over nomenclature; based on the fact that some earlier Audi Quattro equipped vehicles did use a Torsen torque-sensing centre differential (the earliest, including the "Ur-Quattro" turbo coupe used a manually locking open center differential), many fans believe that "quattro" refers to the Torsen type of 4WD system, not realising that it is simply a trademark. (It is interesting to note that "quattro" is also used on the Audi Q7 SUV, which uses neither Torsen nor Haldex; instead, it uses a BorgWarner system). As can be seen, the Haldex LSC is used in conventional road-going cars, crossovers, and full-on SUVs.

	Quote:
	The Haldex 4WD system is currently used in the following vehicle models: Volkswagen Group (Volkswagen AG) Audi A3 quattro Audi S3 Audi Q3 Audi TT quattro Bugatti Veyron SEAT León 4 SEAT Altea Freetrack 4 SEAT Alhambra 4 Škoda Octavia 4x4 Škoda Superb 4x4 Škoda Yeti 4x4 (Haldex Fourth Gen) VW Golf R VW Bora 4motion VW New Beetle RSi VW Passat 4motion B6 Platform VW Sharan 4motion VW Tiguan Volkswagen Golf 4motion IV VW Multivan 4motion VW Caddy 4motion VW Transporter 4motion (Yet to be released Volvo Cars Volvo S40 AWD Volvo V50 AWD Volvo S60 AWD Volvo S60R AWD Volvo XC60 (Haldex Fourth Gen) Volvo V70 AWD Volvo S70 AWD Volvo V70R AWD Volvo XC70 (Haldex First Gen 1998-2001, Second Gen 2002-2005, Third Gen 2006+) Volvo S80 AWD Volvo XC90 (Haldex Second Gen) Ford Ford Taurus Ford Freestyle Ford Kuga Mercury Montego Tata Land Rover LR2 Saab Automobile Saab 9-3 XWD 2008.5- (Haldex Fourth Gen with eLSD) Saab 9-3 Turbo X (Haldex Fourth Gen with eLSD) Saab 9-5 2010- (Haldex Fourth Gen with eLSD) Saab 9-4X (Haldex Fourth Gen with eLSD) Bugatti Veyron Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4[10] GM Opel Insignia (Haldex Fourth Gen.) Buick Lacrosse (Haldex Fourth Gen.) Cadillac SRX (Haldex Fourth Gen.)

AntZ · #46 03.09.2011, 01:09

	Quote:	J_T
	...not white, perchance?

No, it's not white.

J_T · #47 03.09.2011, 02:42

	Quote:	AntZ
	No, it's not white.

...that's good. Couple of months ago some guy in a white one kept trying to street race me, and when I didn't oblige, kept tailgating and passing me on the right. Finally flipped him the bird and watched him disappear in the mirror. Dunno what his trip was...

Mark75 · #48 03.09.2011, 08:56

	Quote:	rob1
	Are you sure? Skoda uses the most basic haldex clutch system..... the car is not realy 4wd in the true sense. Its fwd and when the front wheels loose traction drive is also transfered to the rear. clever marketing and lack of info in the brochures does give the impression its a full time 4dw when it is not. i considered buying the 4x4 model until i found the truth

Have you ever test driven a Haldex equipped car on snow? When I switched from Audi to Volvo I was a little worried about how the Haldex would perform on snow but after the first winter I can assure you that the Volvo with the Haldex system (3rd gen) does the job just fine.
Sure, the Audi was more fun drifting up a snowy pass road

but that's probably not what most drivers care about and it's more due to the fact that those safety-obsessed Swedish engineers don't let you turn off ESP/DSTC than to the Haldex.

	Quote:	rob1
	the yeti has an option to engage 4wd all the time, all other models use the 1st gen haldex system

Are you sure that Skoda still uses 1st generation Haldex? I know that VAG doesn't allow Skoda to use the latest technology for marketing reasons but still selling new cars with 1st gen Haldex in 2011 would be borderline deceit IMHO.

Eire · #49 03.09.2011, 13:48

	Quote:	Mark75
	Are you sure that Skoda still uses 1st generation Haldex? I know that VAG doesn't allow Skoda to use the latest technology for marketing reasons but still selling new cars with 1st gen Haldex in 2011 would be borderline deceit IMHO.

This is not true. The Skoda Fabia was released on the A0 (I think) platform one year before the first Volkswagen Polo based on that platform.

Also the current Haldex version used by Skoda is the same as the one used across all VAG cars (AFAIK it's second gen, but could possibly be third, definitely not 1st!). The confusion comes because the original Audi Quattro's were not Haldex but a permanent 4WD system. Quattro does not refer to the type of 4WD used, it's simply the trade mark for 4x4 from Audi, just like 4motion is used for VW's.

Most VAG cars regardless of whether they are an Audi or a Skoda share the same technology.

AntZ · #50 03.09.2011, 14:49

	Quote:	J_T
	...that's good. Couple of months ago some guy in a white one kept trying to street race me, and when I didn't oblige, kept tailgating and passing me on the right. Finally flipped him the bird and watched him disappear in the mirror. Dunno what his trip was...

I never did stuff like that even when I was young, if anyone ever pulled the tailgating crap with me, I would invite them to pull over so we can have a friendly chat!!

AntZ · #51 03.09.2011, 14:58

	Quote:	Eire
	This is not true. The Skoda Fabia was released on the A0 (I think) platform one year before the first Volkswagen Polo based on that platform. Also the current Haldex version used by Skoda is the same as the one used across all VAG cars (AFAIK it's second gen, but could possibly be third, definitely not 1st!). The confusion comes because the original Audi Quattro's were not Haldex but a permanent 4WD system. Quattro does not refer to the type of 4WD used, it's simply the trade mark for 4x4 from Audi, just like 4motion is used for VW's. Most VAG cars regardless of whether they are an Audi or a Skoda share the same technology.

That's all I've seen!

The write-ups I posted above confirms this! Plus, all the brands pull their parts from the same supplier's, it would be financially irresponsible for VWG that the different brands must receive lower and higher quality drive trains from the same manufacturer just to keep one brand at a disadvantage.

Everything under the hood and the drive train of my Skoda is stamped "AUDI/VW"! (Audi is represented with the 4 rings symbol) From the disc brake rotors to the smallest plastic part on the engine.

rob1 · #52 04.09.2011, 12:26

	Quote:	Mark75
	Have you ever test driven a Haldex equipped car on snow? When I switched from Audi to Volvo I was a little worried about how the Haldex would perform on snow but after the first winter I can assure you that the Volvo with the Haldex system (3rd gen) does the job just fine. Sure, the Audi was more fun drifting up a snowy pass road but that's probably not what most drivers care about and it's more due to the fact that those safety-obsessed Swedish engineers don't let you turn off ESP/DSTC than to the Haldex. Are you sure that Skoda still uses 1st generation Haldex? I know that VAG doesn't allow Skoda to use the latest technology for marketing reasons but still selling new cars with 1st gen Haldex in 2011 would be borderline deceit IMHO.

for clarity the new 2011 models use the 4th gen haldex, older used the most basic version....

my friend has an older skoda and a older volvo, both the "4wd" versions, i found the volvo far better to drive in snow/ice.

k_and_e · #53 04.09.2011, 13:33

	Quote:	AntZ
	That's all I've seen! The write-ups I posted above confirms this! Plus, all the brands pull their parts from the same supplier's, it would be financially irresponsible for VWG that the different brands must receive lower and higher quality drive trains from the same manufacturer just to keep one brand at a disadvantage. Everything under the hood and the drive train of my Skoda is stamped "AUDI/VW"! (Audi is represented with the 4 rings symbol) From the disc brake rotors to the smallest plastic part on the engine.

A Mercedes is a Mercedes
a BMW is a BMW
An Audi is a VAG mix

karlyik · #54 04.09.2011, 15:35

When I moved to Lausanne, I brought with me my BMW 535 touring from UK and had the tyres changed to winter tyres in preparation for the snow. It drove fine on level roads, but the slightest gradient the rear would start slipping and DTC kicked in which of course them meant you gradually come to a halt!! Car was much better with DTC switched off, but like most people have commented, BMW rear wheel drive is rubbish in snow.
I now have a 5 series XDrive, but have not driven it in snow yet, hopefullt it will get a workout in the next few months.

Anthony1406 · #55 04.09.2011, 15:49

	Quote:	karlyik
	When I moved to Lausanne, I brought with me my BMW 535 touring from UK and had the tyres changed to winter tyres in preparation for the snow. It drove fine on level roads, but the slightest gradient the rear would start slipping and DTC kicked in which of course them meant you gradually come to a halt!! Car was much better with DTC switched off, but like most people have commented, BMW rear wheel drive is rubbish in snow. I now have a 5 series XDrive, but have not driven it in snow yet, hopefullt it will get a workout in the next few months.

my 2001 bmw touring rwd is fantastic in snow

barely slides and really does "hug" the road. and if you have a RWD just throw a bit of weight in the back which increases traction alot

AntZ · #56 04.09.2011, 17:41

	Quote:	rob1
	for clarity the new 2011 models use the 4th gen haldex, older used the most basic version.... my friend has an older skoda and a older volvo, both the "4wd" versions, i found the volvo far better to drive in snow/ice.

I don't want to argue with you, but you keep insisting that Skoda uses "the most basic" version?? Well, the first 4X4 skoda's did, along with all the other Haldex equipped cars of that time. The Superb Combi 4X4 is a car that was introduced last year, my car is new! The sedan Superb's have been around a few years now, I'm not even sure they ever had the 4X4 system, but the Octavia's did, and they progressed from the Gen.1 through the years.

	Quote:
	Skoda Octavia A5 Combi 4x4, Scout Facelift (2009-...) Haldex Generation IV automatic all wheel drive.

Again, I own a new Superb Combi 4X4, that is the car that you insisted that only had a first generation system in the above post. I was talking about my new car that I traded in my Audi for, it doesn't make any difference what Skoda used 3, 5, or ten years ago in their cars!

Quote:

Skoda Superb 4X4 : GET A GRIP

Expert Rating:

Does Skoda's Superb saloon get even better with four-wheel-drive? Steve Walker takes a look.

Low key to the point of being subterranean and with prices rooted at the bottom of a mine shaft dug into the Executive car sector's bargain basement, Skoda's Superb has obvious appeal. It's a big, classy saloon for those who'd rather not engage in the `mine's flashier than yours' golf club car park one-upmanship contests that the majority of the sector's protagonists have at least half an eye on winning. At its best, the Superb gets the job done efficiently with little overkill but where does that leave the 4x4 versions?

Do British buyers need big 4x4 saloons? Audi will tell you that they most definitely do, having fashioned a range that's dominated by quattro all-wheel-drive technology. Skoda is a VW Group partner of Audi and the Superb 4x4 uses the same fourth generation Haldex system to distribute power to the four corners of the car.In extremis, a quartet of driven wheels is undoubtedly more capable and composed than a pair at the front but will Skoda customers attracted by the car's value proposition be willing to pay extra for something that could be all but undetectable on the daily commute? The Haldex 4x4 system offered on the Superb is available with what are probably the car's two best mainstream engines, plus its most expensive unit.....


	http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews...4-1006295.html

rob1 · #57 04.09.2011, 18:00

	Quote:	AntZ
	I don't want to argue with you, but you keep insisting that Skoda uses "the most basic" version?? Well, the first 4X4 skoda's did, along with all the other Haldex equipped cars of that time. The Superb Combi 4X4 is a car that was introduced last year, my car is new! The sedan Superb's have been around a few years now, I'm not even sure they ever had the 4X4 system, but the Octavia's did, and they progressed from the Gen.1 through the years. Again, I own a new Superb Combi 4X4, that is the car that you insisted that only had a first generation system in the above post.

ah no i didnt

you need to re read slowly this time, as you have just said in a far longer version, what i have said, and obviously if there isnt a "4wd" model available then it wont have "4wd" as in the superb sedan.

AntZ · #58 04.09.2011, 20:33

	Quote:	rob1
	ah no i didnt you need to re read slowly this time, as you have just said in a far longer version, what i have said, and obviously if there isnt a "4wd" model available then it wont have "4wd" as in the superb sedan.

Thanks for the smugness! I'll be happy to reread your post, and why don't you reread my first post as well!

	Quote:	AntZ
	From my experience, I think you need a blend of driver skill and proper equipment to stay out of trouble. When I first learned to drive back in the early 80's, it was in the family Lincoln Continental with a 7.5l engine. When ever it rained and the roads became slick, that car would spin if you gave it too much gas around corners. Very quickly, you develop the feel for the road and can make the car do what you need without driving slow. Over here in Switzerland, my wife and I just happened to buy an Audi Quattro and we fell in love with the security in brings in the bad weather. I would force the limits on that car and it always stayed in control, I did also run Continental Winter tires on it. Now we traded that in for a Skoda Superb 4X4 (that runs the same system as the Audi) and that car is just as enjoyable to drive in the worst weather. During some harsh snow storms last winter, I was driving around cars spinning their front or back wheels at almost every street corner. We also have a hi horse power Dodge 4X4 SUV, I just run the stock GoodYear sport utility tires during the winter. And in the last 6 winters, nothing has stopped that vehicle from getting down the road! Ice, slush, or heavy snow, that just bull dozes along any road without the use of dedicated winter tires!

I labeled the car as the Skoda Superb 4X4 BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT'S OFFICIALLY CALLED BY THE MANUFACTURER! Just as Audi calls their AWD cars "Quattro", and VW calls it "4Motion". Skoda calls their 4X4! They even stick the badge to the back of the car.

Does that mean that I can race the Baja 1000 with it? NO! because it is only a AWD car, not a heavy duty 4X4! So you didn't need to give anyone a lesson in the difference. Yes the Yeti has a lock out function, that's because it's sold as an SUV.

Now you quoted this from me:

	Quote:
	Now we traded that in for a Skoda Superb 4X4 (that runs the same system as the Audi)

And replied here:

	Quote:	rob1
	Are you sure? Skoda uses the most basic haldex clutch system..... the car is not realy 4wd in the true sense. Its fwd and when the front wheels loose traction drive is also transfered to the rear. clever marketing and lack of info in the brochures does give the impression its a full time 4dw when it is not. i considered buying the 4x4 model until i found the truth the yeti has an option to engage 4wd all the time, all other models use the 1st gen haldex system

	Quote:
	Are you sure?

That the Skoda runs the same system as Audi? YES!

	Quote:
	Skoda uses the most basic haldex clutch system.....

Not now! Probably 5 to 10 years ago!

	Quote:
	the car is not realy 4wd in the true sense. Its fwd and when the front wheels loose traction drive is also transfered to the rear.

I never said it was a true 4X4, and no one is disputing this! I did label my Dodge as being a 4X4 SUV because it's a true 4X4 SUV! I do know the difference.

	Quote:
	clever marketing and lack of info in the brochures does give the impression its a full time 4dw when it is not.

Again, I was never fooled into thinking I could jump it off of berms or cross rivers. But I did know it would get me safely around town in a snow storm just as my Audi Quattro did.

	Quote:
	the yeti has an option to engage 4wd all the time, all other models use the 1st gen haldex system

The Yeti does have a lock out function for off road use, but your last statement is entirely incorrect.

yaroslav.r777 · #59 11.09.2011, 22:23

Well, have the same problem...Last winter had BMW 330 coupe...couldn't get home twice(I live in St-Legier, study in Montreux). Car was just getting stuck in the middle of the hill

This year driving 350z, taking few actions BEFORE winter: 1) Moving to Montreux 2) Thinking about other car for a winter...

It is all up to you, but if you decide to drive a rear wheel drive in the winter, get decent winter tires and always keep chains in your car.

fatmanfilms · #60 12.09.2011, 06:11

	Quote:	yaroslav.r777
	Well, have the same problem...Last winter had BMW 330 coupe...couldn't get home twice(I live in St-Legier, study in Montreux). Car was just getting stuck in the middle of the hill This year driving 350z, taking few actions BEFORE winter: 1) Moving to Montreux 2) Thinking about other car for a winter... It is all up to you, but if you decide to drive a rear wheel drive in the winter, get decent winter tires and always keep chains in your car.

Did you have winter tyres? No problem With a 328 auto at all,