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  #21  
Old 04.11.2011, 11:24
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

In other cases public transport crashes into it's self,
Bus and Tram crash in Dublin two years ago, Was a major accident caused by signalling problem, the bus had a green light the tram apparently had also.



http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0916/luas.html
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  #22  
Old 04.11.2011, 11:33
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

Not only do they pull out from right but they cut right across you, nearly had my M3 written off by someone coming from right at speed,
madness...
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  #23  
Old 04.11.2011, 11:34
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

The trams don't have anywhere to go!!

A truck, car, bike, pedestrian does - they have the option to get out of the way - to not make a last minute dive across the tracks.

Tram drivers get a raw deal in my view. I've had far more positive experiences with them than negative ones.

How many times have you seen a tram just being driven without issue?
How many times do you remember it?
How many times do you see one being aggressive?
How many times do you remember that?
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  #24  
Old 04.11.2011, 11:37
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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I think in the majority of cases it works like that but there does seem to be a rather umm... aggressive element of the tram driving fraternity that seem to relish all the drama of the emergency stop and ring-a-ding-ding of their bell. Even I have been able to read a situation that there is a car sprawled halfway over a tram line and would have started to brake but certain tram drivers seem to leave it to the last minute, lean on the brakes and gesticulate wildly.

I understand that they are much harder to stop than a car or a bike and, believe me, I give those buggers a wide berth when I'm out and about but some do seem to have a special kind of arrogance.
If they didn't play it aggressive, no one would move out of their way at all. At least, that's my experience with other drivers.

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Not only do they pull out from right but they cut right across you, nearly had my M3 written off by someone coming from right at speed,
madness...
I don't know the specifics of your situation, but it might be an education issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_to_the_right
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Old 04.11.2011, 11:37
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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Not only do they pull out from right but they cut right across you, nearly had my M3 written off by someone coming from right at speed,
madness...
I guess you've not yet become familiar with the "priority from the right" rule, then...

Might save you a few bob on repairs.
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  #26  
Old 04.11.2011, 11:53
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

Watch this report on the problem of trams braking, especially the part after 1:28 for the distance they need to brake and 0:50 for examples of how daft people are, with a car forcing its right of way... They don't do it on purpose. YOU need to move.
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  #27  
Old 04.11.2011, 12:12
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

Bahnhof Enge Badenerstrasse is a nightmare. I have seen - and been on the tram - so many times when a car has cut in front.
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  #28  
Old 04.11.2011, 12:14
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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I guess you've not yet become familiar with the "priority from the right" rule, then...

Might save you a few bob on repairs.
Agreed, but the main point is that the rule is badly thought out, i.e. just plain wrong.

- At unmarked intersections a faster vehicle on the main-road has to give way to someone turning out of a side-road. This slows down everyone down and makes for a more dangerous environment.
- It gives priority to the driver who has better visibility and disadvantages the person who has restricted visibility.
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  #29  
Old 04.11.2011, 12:49
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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Agreed, but the main point is that the rule is badly thought out, i.e. just plain wrong.

- At unmarked intersections a faster vehicle on the main-road has to give way to someone turning out of a side-road. This slows down everyone down and makes for a more dangerous environment.
- It gives priority to the driver who has better visibility and disadvantages the person who has restricted visibility.
Not true.

At the majority of intersections on main roads, the driver coming from the right does have to yield, hence the line of triangles (wee little yield signs) ^^^^^^^^ as he approaches the intersection.

In all thirty zones and in all other areas without aforementioned triangular markings, the Rechts vor Links principal applies. It's a rule all over Europe and just because you're not familiar with it (as with most laws) doesn't mean that you aren't responsible for obeying it.

Last edited by Ratbert; 04.11.2011 at 12:59.
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  #30  
Old 04.11.2011, 12:58
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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So at impact, Velocity is the major factor.
Hence armor piercing bullets are light but extremely fast
Indeed. And that's why you a B767 disappears when you fly it into a building (though not all of the 911 conspiracy people have got that) or if I fire a bullet made of butter at you, it will do serious damage to your weekend's social diary.

Trams = "Silent Killers"


From a friend who was nearly sliced in half by one late night in Basel having lost his "situational awareness", i.e. he was lost.
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  #31  
Old 04.11.2011, 13:04
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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From a friend who was nearly sliced in half by one late night in Basel having lost his "situational awareness", i.e. he was lost.
Don't get me started on car drivers who drive at 20kmh because they are lost
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  #32  
Old 04.11.2011, 13:19
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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From a friend who was nearly sliced in half by one late night in Basel having lost his "situational awareness"
Yeah. I tend to lose situational awarenes after a few Guinnesses too.
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  #33  
Old 04.11.2011, 13:26
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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I guess you've not yet become familiar with the "priority from the right" rule, then...
I nearly got broadsided this morning going around a roundabout. I was already in the roundabout, turning left. Old dear in her VW Golf thought that she had priority from the right and came charging in front of me, inches from my car...not realising that traffic on the roundabout has priority over traffic entering the roundabout, even when entering from the right.

This is the opposite of the old dear I nearly rear-ended a few weeks ago when she slammed on her brakes mid-roundabout to let traffic from the right enter ahead of her.

Twenty years they've had roundabouts here in Switzerland, and still it seems many of the oldtimers can't get them right...
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  #34  
Old 04.11.2011, 13:28
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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Agreed, but the main point is that the rule is badly thought out, i.e. just plain wrong.

- At unmarked intersections a faster vehicle on the main-road has to give way to someone turning out of a side-road. This slows down everyone down and makes for a more dangerous environment.
- It gives priority to the driver who has better visibility and disadvantages the person who has restricted visibility.
If you are going along a road and see this sign:

= you have right of way

If you see this sign:


= priority from the right is back on
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  #35  
Old 04.11.2011, 13:44
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

Just to make it more exciting - here in Basel on Thursday next week they are doing a disaster-simulation exercise where they will derail a tram (as in "on purpose"!!) and lay it on it's side so that they can practice what to do.

Erm... hang on a sec.... but didn't almost exactly that happen this week already? For real? Oh no, it was late at night, and only a few people were injured, here we have to practice for major casualties and road chaos.... and we have to have this practice as it's been planned for over a year! Right. Of course.

So yes, anyone going near the ISB in Aesch on Thursday 10th November, expect to see a planned tram accident and LONG traffic delays because they are going to do the exercise right there at that junction from 10am going on pretty much all day.

http://www.aesch.bl.ch/de/alle/aktue...info_id=156924

Last edited by wattsli1; 04.11.2011 at 13:55. Reason: just adding a link about Thursdays exercise
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  #36  
Old 04.11.2011, 13:52
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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The sad part is, sometimes there are victims.

http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/bet...-liegen-186122

Like many other things about Switzerland...I dislike the way roads are set up. Crosswalks right after a roundabout..plenty of blind spots, narrow roads with no possibility to avoid a collision and the utter idiotic principle, that the person coming from the right has the right of way; which not only disrupts traffic, but makes it hazzardous for cyclist and bike riders.
Very very sad about those 2 little chaps. The first one was by a drunk driver, the second one they had to get parental DNA to identify him.
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  #37  
Old 04.11.2011, 14:12
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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The sad part is, sometimes there are victims.

http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/bet...-liegen-186122

Like many other things about Switzerland...I dislike the way roads are set up. Crosswalks right after a roundabout..plenty of blind spots, narrow roads with no possibility to avoid a collision and the utter idiotic principle, that the person coming from the right has the right of way; which not only disrupts traffic, but makes it hazzardous for cyclist and bike riders.
LiB, are you suggesting that bad road accidents only happen in Switzerland?
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  #38  
Old 04.11.2011, 14:14
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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LiB, are you suggesting that bad road accidents only happen in Switzerland?
No, I don't...but there could be plenty of preventative measures implemented, which could save quite a few lives IMO.
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  #39  
Old 04.11.2011, 14:20
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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No, I don't...but there could be plenty of preventative measures implemented, which could save quite a few lives IMO.
Sure, but AFAIK, it is no worse or better here than elsewhere - so what exactly makes you think it is particularly bad here, requiring additional safety measures?

The story you posted reports that some (/%/ç* drunk driver pulled out from behind a car that had stopped to let a child cross. The other a truck reversing. (Please feel free to correct my understanding/German.)

Tragic, absolutely. Avoidable, most likely.

But hardly related to road safety design in Switzerland.
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Old 04.11.2011, 14:29
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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Sure, but AFAIK, it is no worse or better here than elsewhere - so what exactly makes you think it is particularly bad here, requiring additional safety measures?

The story you posted reports that some (/%/ç* drunk driver pulled out from behind a car that had stopped to let a child cross. The other a truck reversing. (Please feel free to correct my understanding/German.)

Tragic, absolutely. Avoidable, most likely.

But hardly related to road safety design in Switzerland.
Well, my point is, in comparasence to other countries, which have by far more traffic, Switzerland does have quite an awful statistic. Also consider the time and money consuming effort of getting a drivers license here in comparasence to other countries...(and additional hurdles such as the 2 courses which you have to take after passing your exam etc.) I find it baffling how there are still so many unfortunate incidents.

In terms of safety measures, there are quite a few things to be done. First of all, we need wider roads. Highways in Germany and France do have wider lanes...also, we need straight roads and not a friggin roller coaster through the alps just to protect a barn which was built by Willlhem Tell's 2nd cousin from his mother's side. Also, stupid things such as crosswalks right after a roundabout should be abolished...I could go on...but you get my drift?

Last edited by lost_inbroad; 04.11.2011 at 14:52.
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