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  #41  
Old 04.11.2011, 14:38
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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...I could go on...but you get my drift?
Not really.

1) how do you define "more traffic"? I would have thought that in terms of density, CH is quite high

2) how do you know accidents/car/traffic volume is greater here than elswhere? data from here suggests that CH is middle of the road - no pun intended - and certainly better than the UK or the US, and deaths is a little worse that the UK, much better than the US and still middle of the road-ish

3) As for "William Tell's barn", you don't think geography - or topology - and has anything to do with winding roads? There's plenty of examples of "William Tell's barn" getting in the way of building plans all over the world, so again, I don't think you can level that at the Swiss alone. Likewise, of the historical development of cities in Europe, you do get narrower roads than in the US.

Sorry, LiB, but this is coming across as just another excuse for you to rant at the Swiss because... well just because really.

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  #42  
Old 04.11.2011, 14:46
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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Not true.

At the majority of intersections on main roads, the driver coming from the right does have to yield, hence the line of triangles (wee little yield signs) ^^^^^^^^ as he approaches the intersection.
Try reading these three words again and see if you can hoist in the meaning of the second word in red.
"At unmarked intersections..."
Those little yield signs ^^^^^^^^ you are talking about are 'markings' and are there to invalidate the rule. The same is true of all roundabouts here.

In a way, though you did not understand it, you prove my point.

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In all thirty zones and in all other areas without aforementioned triangular markings, the Rechts vor Links principal applies. It's a rule all over Europe and just because you're not familiar with it (as with most laws) doesn't mean that you aren't responsible for obeying it.
Since I have lived here for much more that half of my life and and am a pensioner I am quite familiar with the rule. The point is that Europe (excluding the left-hand driving part) has a nonsensical rule and to counteract its stupidity must spend millions putting up yield signs all over the place as exceptions to the rule.
You may or may not remember that the left-driving countries were capable of correcting their nonsensical rule some decades ago. Maybe not!!!

Will right-side driving Europe ever manage to do it as well?... I know not.

Last edited by spalebärg; 04.11.2011 at 14:57.
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  #43  
Old 04.11.2011, 14:59
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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Well, my point is, in comparasence to other countries, which have by far more traffic Switzerland does have quite an awful statistic.
Not really:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

Only a few countries fare better and things could be improved.

I don't get why society accepts 300 deaths in road accidents when it would never accept that from public transportation.
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  #44  
Old 04.11.2011, 15:04
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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In terms of safety measures, there are quite a few things to be done. First of all, we need wider roads. Highways in Germany and France do have wider lanes...also, we need straight roads and not a friggin roller coaster through the alps just to protect a barn which was built by Willlhem Tell's 2nd cousin from his mother's side. Also, stupid things such as crosswalks right after a roundabout should be abolished...I could go on...but you get my drift?
I've driven all over Europe, and I've never come across a country with such a poorly-thought-out approach to road safety. I agree with LIB that road safety here seems to be an afterthought, with haphazard placement of crosswalks and road layouts that are just ASKING for an accident to happen.

Despite 20 years behind the wheel, here are some examples of places that terrify me every time I drive them:



Traffic entering from I don't know how many directions, plus two tram lines which cut across traffic. Roadworks thrown in just to add to the confusion. But the road planners never thought of installing a roundabout (with clear priorities) or traffic lights (to control the junction and to minimize the risk of a car/tram incident)?

Or how about this one?



Two sets of tram lines, one continuing straight on, one turning. Traffic entering from multiple directions with multiple lanes coming from each direction. All four roads are very busy with heavy traffic flow at all times of the day. But no one thought that a set of traffic lights might help bring order to the chaos?



In the past week, they've made a few changes on this section of road to make it safer. But you've got 1) traffic entering from the right that needs to cross 3 lanes of traffic for the left-hand exit; 2) a left-hand lane that turns into an exit-only lane, forcing vehicles to the right; and, until last week, 3) a right-hand lane that turns into an exit-only lane, forcing additional traffic left. In the two years I've lived in Basel, I must have witnessed 30+ accidents in this spot.


These aren't old roads where there was no alternative, nor are they twisting around immovable Swiss mountains. These are all three roads where a little common sense and safety planning could make accidents FAR less likely to occur, and could certainly make city-centre driving much less stressful.
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  #45  
Old 04.11.2011, 15:09
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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Not really.

1) how do you define "more traffic"? I would have thought that in terms of density, CH is quite high
Well, traffic density is certainly high...however, traffic volume isn't high when comparing to let's say New York City. That's why, there is a far greater chance to get into an accident in NYC than in CH. The fact that traffic is very dense here is only a result of poor road planning or simply taking over the roads that were pre-made during the medieval times.

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2) how do you know accidents/car/traffic volume is greater here than elswhere? data from here suggests that CH is middle of the road - no pun intended - and certainly better than the UK or the US, and deaths is a little worse that the UK, much better than the US and still middle of the road-ish
There is another measure called vehivle/miles traveled. Here it shows, that the UK isn't not really that bad of a place (http://www.driveandstayalive.com/inf...apita-2004.htm) however, these results can also be misinterpreted. Namely because and I quote from the website
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In the USA, the measure used is deaths per 100 million Vehicle Miles Traveled (VMT). Elsewhere it is deaths per one billion vehicle kilometres travelled
this means that it may take the US a day to reach 100VMT..but it will take Switzerland a year do travel the same amount...and therefore, you'd have by far more "chances" to get killed in the US vs Switzerland..this makes the US roads safer than the Swiss ones...namely because of the VMTD rates which are quite similar.
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3) As for "William Tell's barn", you don't think geography - or topology - and has anything to do with winding roads? There's plenty of examples of "William Tell's barn" getting in the way of building plans all over the world, so again, I don't think you can level that at the Swiss alone. Likewise, of the historical development of cities in Europe, you do get narrower roads than in the US.
Certainly topology has a little to do with it...but this wasn't an issue for inctance in South Korea, when they built the highspeed train lines through mountains etc. I just feel, that things should be done more pracmatically for the collective benefit and at times, put aside the direct democracy approach. Look at the never ending 80Kph zone going to Zurich...it can't be, that they're still doing work on that lane...shoot, I'd get me 1 Chinese construction company and knock that project out within 2 weeks.




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Not really:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Only a few countries fare better and things could be improved.

I don't get why society accepts 300 deaths in road accidents when it would never accept that from public transportation.
Compare it to actually traffic and dirving population size...and you'll get a different figure.

Last edited by lost_inbroad; 04.11.2011 at 15:38.
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  #46  
Old 04.11.2011, 15:19
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

Here's some maths for you from that link I posted:

CH:
Population: 7,623,438
N. passenger cars: 636,540
Density of cars/pop: 8.3%
Density of cars/km road: 61/km

Accidents (n, %pop, %car): 2134, 0.028%, 0.335%
Injury (n, %pop, %car): 2618, 0.034%, 0.411%
Death (n, %pop, %car):58, 0.001%, 0.009%

USA:
Population: 312,549,000
N. passenger cars: 13,707,743

Density of cars/pop: 4.4%
Density of cars/km: 38/km

Accidents (n, %pop, %car): 182,002, 0.058%, 1.328%
Injury (n, %pop, %car): 229,636, 0.073%, 1.675%
Death (n, %pop, %car): 15,449, 0.005%, 0.113%

Sources:
link in my post above
Wikipedia for USA population
US fact file for CH population
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IS.VEH.ROAD.K1

Based on all this, I think CH is doing quite well compared to a country that has no "stupid right of way from the right", no blind corners/crossings because of town designs and no death-trap public transport.

Ho-hum. Back to work for me.
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  #47  
Old 04.11.2011, 15:22
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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Here's some maths for you from that link I posted:

CH:
Population: 7,623,438
N. passenger cars: 636,540
Density of cars/pop: 8.3%
Density of cars/km road: 61/km

Accidents (n, %pop, %car): 2134, 0.028%, 0.335%
Injury (n, %pop, %car): 2618, 0.034%, 0.411%
Death (n, %pop, %car):58, 0.001%, 0.009%

USA:
Population: 312,549,000
N. passenger cars: 13,707,743

Density of cars/pop: 4.4%
Density of cars/km: 38/km

Accidents (n, %pop, %car): 182,002, 0.058%, 1.328%
Injury (n, %pop, %car): 229,636, 0.073%, 1.675%
Death (n, %pop, %car): 15,449, 0.005%, 0.113%

Sources:
link in my post above
Wikipedia for USA population
US fact file for CH population
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IS.VEH.ROAD.K1

Based on all this, I think CH is doing quite well compared to a country that has no "stupid right of way from the right", no blind corners/crossings because of town designs and no death-trap public transport.

Ho-hum. Back to work for me.
....ehmm, yeah.

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for 2008 there are 255,917,664 registered passenger vehicles.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passeng..._United_States
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  #48  
Old 04.11.2011, 15:29
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

Sorry, LiB, but I'll take a WHO report over Wiki.

Although I did make a mistake - I quote accidents involving alcohol and not total - my bad.

I just guess that shows that the US are more drunk than the Swiss.
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  #49  
Old 04.11.2011, 15:34
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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if I fire a bullet made of butter at you, it will do serious damage to your weekend's social diary.
Actually you can, if you manage to keep the bullet from melting in the chamber and barrel when the charge detonates, and by the friction caused by air, which is practically impossible if you want it to go at a speed where the v^2 can damage someone at impact

Regarding the tram subject; in the Netherlands, we have a priority rule that says "trams have priority in any situation". How is this in Switzerland?
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Old 04.11.2011, 15:36
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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Sorry, LiB, but I'll take a WHO report over Wiki.

Although I did make a mistake - I quote accidents involving alcohol and not total - my bad.

I just guess that shows that the US are more drunk than the Swiss.
You mean to tell me, that you honestly believe the US has no more than 14 million registered cars?! (how do the remaining 298mio people go about their business...car pooling? )
...you really should get back to work.
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Old 04.11.2011, 15:36
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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I don't think this place is typical of Switzerland (maybe Basel?) but when I walk from main station to zoo (surely a popular route) and have to use the crossing on the far left dealing with heavy traffic, trams and cars from multiple directions the absence of light signals seems like madness indeed.
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Old 04.11.2011, 15:47
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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I don't think this place is typical of Switzerland (maybe Basel?) but when I walk from main station to zoo (surely a popular route) and have to use the crossing on the far left dealing with heavy traffic, trams and cars from multiple directions the absence of light signals seems like madness indeed.
Ah, yes, in my assessment of the dangers of this particular intersection, I forgot to mention the multiple cross-walks as well. So you're looking to your right (to give priority), scanning to your left (to make sure a tram isn't coming), looking behind you (to make sure a tram isn't setting off across where you're trying to turn), then double-checking that no one is crossing the road from either direction.

Then, of course, there's always the risk that you end up going around the corner and end up stopped in the middle of the junction and blocking the tram tracks if a pedestrian decides to cross on the second crossing (left-hand side of tracks).

Sounds like the safest situation in the world, right?
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Old 04.11.2011, 15:48
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

Anways, let's get back on topic and not compare sad statistics for the sake of arguing.


I believe the perfect solution would be a monorail. It would free up space on the ground and be the perfect gateway to start building taller structures.

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Old 04.11.2011, 15:59
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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Anways, let's get back on topic and not compare sad statistics for the sake of arguing.


I believe the perfect solution would be a monorail. It would free up space on the ground and be the perfect gateway to start building taller structures.
Seriously?? You want to rip historic cities apart because a few people don't look where they are going??

Bizarrely - I have never had a problem with the "complicated" traffic signal/rules over here. I'm not sure what that means.

Last edited by dodgyken; 04.11.2011 at 16:20.
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Old 04.11.2011, 17:06
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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Two sets of tram lines, one continuing straight on, one turning. Traffic entering from multiple directions with multiple lanes coming from each direction. All four roads are very busy with heavy traffic flow at all times of the day. But no one thought that a set of traffic lights might help bring order to the chaos?
It's a few years old, but Castro's picture is from that same corner.
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Old 04.11.2011, 17:15
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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I don't think this place is typical of Switzerland (maybe Basel?) but when I walk from main station to zoo (surely a popular route) and have to use the crossing on the far left dealing with heavy traffic, trams and cars from multiple directions the absence of light signals seems like madness indeed.
Funny you should pick that intersection (Markthalle in Basel) - that's where this picture was taken:



Story here: http://bazonline.ch/basel/stadt/Busf...story/30313846

(oops, Mirfield beat me to it!)

Last edited by quark; 04.11.2011 at 17:18. Reason: sorry for double post!
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Old 04.11.2011, 17:57
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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You mean to tell me, that you honestly believe the US has no more than 14 million registered cars?! (how do the remaining 298mio people go about their business...car pooling? )
...you really should get back to work.
I dunno. Maybe they are all unemployed?

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It's a few years old, but Castro's picture is from that same corner.
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Ermmm... Castro?

Don't recall you getting that heavy on the beers at lunch...

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Old 04.11.2011, 20:06
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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Ermmm... Castro?

Don't recall you getting that heavy on the beers at lunch...
Uhm. Yeah. Sorry about that. I think I had a senior moment afternoon.
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Old 04.11.2011, 20:26
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

I totally agree with "VillageIdiot"'s statement "I've driven all over Europe, and I've never come across a country with such a poorly-thought-out approach to road safety. I agree with LIB that road safety here seems to be an afterthought, with haphazard placement of crosswalks and road layouts that are just ASKING for an accident to happen."

Although I'm not on my way with a camera to take pictures of dangerous junctions/situations, also in Zürich there are plenty of them. Even junctions/squares which I drive through every week, sometimes scare the hell out of me as there's traffic coming from so many directions and they've just created a mess with signs, tramlines, zebras, etc etc.
Not to speak of driving past many-many tramlines with countless zebras, and plenty of pedestrians crossing without even looking over their shoulder. Shocks me every time, and not surprised to read so many sad stories of people being killed on the zebra...
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Old 04.11.2011, 21:00
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Re: Tram 11 crash this morning

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Seriously?? You want to rip historic cities apart because a few people don't look where they are going??
Nah! I think they are already doing it pretty well with their concepts of new architecture...
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