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  #21  
Old 19.01.2012, 19:10
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

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My mistake you are right - as you can see this car whose tyres have lost grip aren't wearing out at all
If you really think that a car with wheels spinning from power or braking is in any way similar to a car sliding on ice then you're clearly not really qualified to talk about tyres, winter or summer.

Sorry, this is starting to sound a bit bitchy now, and I don't want it to, so I'll try and avoid giving, or replying to, any more inflammatory comments in this thread.
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  #22  
Old 19.01.2012, 21:25
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

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Please if you do not have winter tyres, think very very carefully before venturing into the mountains where you might come across snow blizzards, black ice - You only have one life & the same goes for other traffic that is around you.
Just my two cents. On Black ice, winter tyres will do squat. You need studded tyres for any grip (or chains)
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  #23  
Old 20.01.2012, 09:49
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

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If you really think that a car with wheels spinning from power or braking is in any way similar to a car sliding on ice then you're clearly not really qualified to talk about tyres, winter or summer.

Sorry, this is starting to sound a bit bitchy now, and I don't want it to, so I'll try and avoid giving, or replying to, any more inflammatory comments in this thread.
Are you sure you want to get into this with me? You are confusing grip and slide.

If you drive a car in a straight line - and never turn the steering wheel the tyres will last a very long time. In fact, the tyre life of a car that sits on the motorway all day and clocks up huge mileage is significently longer than one that drives round town all day.

Tyre wear does happen as the wheel goes round - but not much. The biggest wear occurs when the steering wheel is turned - and slip angle is created. The more you turn the more the tyre wears.

This happens because the car is trying to go forward - and you want to turn. If the grip the tyre can provide exceeds the force trying to keep the car going straight on it will turn. Simple.

So how does this relate to summer tyres in winter?

Easy really. Tyres won't wear as quickly (as you mention) on snow/ice - but I reckon I do 2% of my winter driving in such conditions - most probably less. The rest of the time I'm on either dry (or wet) tarmac!!

When you make a turn you turn the steering wheel - if the tyre can provide sufficient grip for the turn with the angle you have provided you have no problems - if not the tyre will slide - you turn the wheel more until there is enough grip. All the time the tyre is sliding.

These slides are small slides - small differences in steering angle that you are unlikely to feel. BUT each small slide increases tyre wear.

Anytime the tyre is sliding as opposed to "gripping" it is wearing more than it should.

There is plenty of material available on "slip angle" and "circle of traction" - as well as vehicle dynamics and physics. Most of which is essential reading for anyone with a racing licence - which I - well I think you can guess the rest.
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Old 20.01.2012, 10:25
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

The more grip a tire has the more it will wear - plain and simple (think "friction").

Spinning summer tires on warm tarmac will wear the tire down a lot faster then say;
Spinning the same summer tires in freezing weather where the rubber compound has hardened giving less grip/friction.

Summer tires will slide a lot more in freezing tempuratures, and not wear as fast. Likewise winter tires will grip better in summer, but they will wear down quick.

Surely you understand this stuff - since you are - wait, you wanted us to guess the rest.
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Old 20.01.2012, 10:30
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

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Close - but wrong.

If the rubber can't function properly it will slide. Sliding rubber is used more quickly than gripping rubber.
Same thing with condoms, result of sliding rubber is a tad different though.
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Old 20.01.2012, 10:40
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

All very interesting but the rate at which one will wear out one's summer tyres in winter or vice versa should not be put before safety.

If it's winter, use winter tyres. If it's summer, use summer tyres. It's that simple.

Anything else is stupid and irresponsible.
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Old 20.01.2012, 11:24
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

A grippier tyres doesn't wear more quickly! A grippy Michelin tyre will last a lot longer than a cheap chinese/indian made budget tyre - which has bugger all grip.

Forget about grip and the the through of the tyre biting in to the road.

The key to tyre wear is the car changing direction.

Lets make it simple - driving in a straight line at 50kmh - you have to make a small turn- say a few degrees. You don't need to slow down the car makes the turn without any sliding.

Try again with a slightly tighter corner, as you turn the forces being applied to the tyre at a certain - overcome the grip available and the tyre will slide. It is highly likely that you won't feel that minute slide. And by the time the corner is finished you didn't realise you had slip.

Try again with a slightly tighter corner again. This time the slide is slightly more noticable - not understeering into a tree type slide, but enough for you to apply a little extra steering angle - which changes the shape of the contact patch - giving more grip for the process of turning - and you go round the corner.

While the tyre is rolling and "gripping" wear is low - it is when the tyre slides that you get most wear.

As I said before - I am not talking about surfaces where the co-efficients are very low (snow/ice/slush) - those surfaces make up a tiny percentage of the total distance driven in winter. It is on the cold (possibly wet) surfaces where the summer tyre isn't soft enough to grip and slides that you get more wear. Those slides are not the big slides you see with smoke pouring from the wheels - but minute slides which are overcome by an extra degree of steering input.
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Old 20.01.2012, 11:56
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

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As I am having issues getting my winter tyres delivered - I was wondering if it is possible to put chains on summer tyres? Would I get up a mountain?
Hi Bobo, the main difference between summer and winter tires is the rubber blend that allows winter tires to remain "soft" at freezing temperatures, unlike summer tires which become much harder in freezing temperatures. (other than groove pattern of course) Once that happens summer tires quickly loose traction and you go from driving to ice skating really quick.

Chains do not damage winter tires provided they are the right size for the tire and properly installed. However, while I don't have any direct experience with the combination of summer tires and winter chains, I would recommend only doing this in a pinch where you really do not have any other choice. It could be possible that when the temperature drops below the recommend limit for summer tires the chains could damage them as they loose flexibility(probably not the best word to use but it's the best I could think of for the moment).

However as chains are intended only for emergency traction and are to be used a slow speeds only, you probably can get away with very limited use.

Best bet is to call your dealer or local tire shop and ask them the risks.
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  #29  
Old 20.01.2012, 12:03
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

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A grippier tyres doesn't wear more quickly!
They certainly do on my motorcycles!

(and on the cars I've owned)

Tom
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Old 20.01.2012, 12:13
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

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They certainly do on my motorcycles!

(and on the cars I've owned)

Tom
Try buying some Kings - sod all grip - and they wear out incredibly quickly. Which for them is a good thing!!!

Michelin PS2 have/had a superb reputation. Capable of excellent grip - yet with a long life.

I suspect your tyre life is related more to how much fun you have on those "grippy" tyres.

When racing I know that if I slide the car more the tyres wear out more quickly - if I stay "gripped" the tyres last longer - and certainly perform better for longer.
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Old 20.01.2012, 13:43
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

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A grippier tyres doesn't wear more quickly! A grippy Michelin tyre will last a lot longer than a cheap chinese/indian made budget tyre - which has bugger all grip.
There are cheap tires everywhere, but for your information Michelin tires are already manufactured in China and will start soon in India. And so does Bridgestone. I know what you were trying to say by your statement.

Sorry for taking this off topic
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  #32  
Old 20.01.2012, 13:54
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

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As I am having issues getting my winter tyres delivered - I was wondering if it is possible to put chains on summer tyres? Would I get up a mountain?

to answer your question, its not a problem, but using chains is only really possible on areas of road covered by snow etc
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  #33  
Old 20.01.2012, 14:26
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

I think the biggest difference between summer and winter tyres is that the insurance company may choose not to cover you if you have an accident with summer tyres in the winter.
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Old 20.01.2012, 14:31
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

Yes it happened to us this year. Living in England we don't need winter tyres but when we came over before Christmas we got caught in heavy snow and had to use chains. As someone has pointed out you need snow and this meant every time we went lower down we had to take them off. Off/on etc at least three time for an hour long journey is no fun and remember there isn't always a lay-bye to pull into when you need to get them off or on.

When I move out there I will definitely be getting the tyres.
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Old 20.01.2012, 15:09
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

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A grippy Michelin tyre will last a lot longer than a cheap chinese/indian made budget tyre - which has bugger all grip.
This has to do with compound blend and tread design - not temperature as in Summer vs. Winter

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Hi Bobo, the main difference between summer and winter tires is the rubber blend that allows winter tires to remain "soft" at freezing temperatures,
Historically yes, but some of the modern tire compounds hold up remarkably well from warm to freezing temperatures, so this is actually more of a hype point. The biggest difference is with tread design to handle snow and ice. Summer tire treads are designed for a quiet smooth ride, and will throw you to hell as soon as you touch ice

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If it's winter, use winter tyres. If it's summer, use summer tyres. It's that simple.
Winter tires in summer could actually be better then summer tires especially in rain - at the sacrifice of ride comfort.

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When racing I know that if I slide the car more the tyres wear out more quickly - if I stay "gripped" the tyres last longer - and certainly perform better for longer.
Completely correct, it is the 'slide' that wears the tire - but this is different from how temperatures affect point from 'grip to 'slide' You have less grip in cold temperatures which makes it easier to slide but because there is less friction you will also get less wear.
For example, If you take the same tire: when its cold you will slide more and it will wear less, when warm it will grip more (softer creating more friction) but the slides become more destructive meaning it will wear quicker. Comparing to a different tire is like comparing apples and oranges.

OP, are your summer tires All-Season by chance? (do they have an "M&S" on the side markings?) if they are then, depending on the conditions you might be able to get by with chains when needed - otherwise insurance is the bigger issue with or without chains.
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  #36  
Old 20.01.2012, 18:33
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Re: Using a chain on non-winter tyres?

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As I am having issues getting my winter tyres delivered - I was wondering if it is possible to put chains on summer tyres? Would I get up a mountain?
I think that wouldnt be any troubles, in fact, i think that if you put the chain, doesnt matter which type of tires are you using, because the chain will allways hit the floor before the tires do...
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