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  #61  
Old 06.03.2012, 14:49
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Still like my humour?
So supposedly I was the one to generalise???

You have NO IDEA of the circumstances, but you make (false) assumptions based on your preconceptions. That shows lots of character. Thanks for the groan
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  #62  
Old 06.03.2012, 14:52
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Yes, you are wrong, because they will all get off at Goeschenen and take the pass!



The only motorcyclists that are going to take the tunnel (especially in summer) are those that don't filter!

Tom
Ok then take any tunnel that can't be avoided, or when the pass is closed.

I was making an easy to understand example to show my point. I guess it was not easy enough to understand for everyone.
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  #63  
Old 06.03.2012, 14:59
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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The only motorcyclists that are going to take the tunnel (especially in summer) are those that don't filter!
Better have earplugs or loud music because Harley's are loud in a tunnel.

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So supposedly I was the one to generalise???

You have NO IDEA of the circumstances, but you make (false) assumptions based on your preconceptions. That shows lots of character. Thanks for the groan
Not guilty . I don't groan in public (except on a train or in the woods).
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  #64  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:09
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Sorry, don't follow this line of reasoning, either. So once they leave this occupied space in the road that they are so kindly freeing up, they no longer occupy any piece of road? I need to go back to my physics and thermodynamics professors and ask again about convervation of matter.
Let me explain then, the piece of road between two lines of traffic is unoccupied and unusable by anything other than a bike.
A bike in a lane occupies that piece of road in as much as another vehicle can not occupy it.
If the bike id filtering in a space that can only be occupied by a bike, ie, between the lanes, then he has freed up the piece of lane otherwise occupied by himself.
Everyone's a winner.

Of course, the physics says the bike is always occupying a piece of road, but who would be so pedantic to come up with petty reasoning like that to say bikes shouldn't be allowed to filter?
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  #65  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:10
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Exactly and when they pass everyone in the line then what happens? DO THEY DISAPPEAR???

No, they go through the tunnel where they do not drive between lanes which means they occupy "slots" which means DELAY to all behind them. But if this needs explanation, then what am I arguing. Apparently this forum is not for arguing on subjects but about agreeing with forum veterans or get voted down.
st2lemans already said why it is not valid for the Gotthard. But lets make a general calculation. You are waiting 3 hours w/o any filtering motorbike. 100 motorbikes passes you. Tunnel capacity is Tunnelspeed / Safetydistance * Lanes. Lets assume a single lane tunnel with 60 km/h and a safety distance of 50m (Gotthard is 50m, 80km/h). This gives a capacity of 20 Vehicles per minute.
Conclusion: instead of a 180 minute wait you will have a whooping 185 minute wait.
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  #66  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:10
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Exactly and when they pass everyone in the line then what happens? DO THEY DISAPPEAR?.
In a fashion, yes. If they overtook you when stationary, and they blast away at speeds higher than yours (almost a certainty!), you will never see them again, nor will they be the source of any queuing.
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  #67  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:16
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

I gave up reading this argument a couple of pages ago and filtered to the end of the thread.

I win!
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  #68  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:17
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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In a fashion, yes. If they overtook you when stationary, and they blast away at speeds higher than yours (almost a certainty!), you will never see them again, nor will they be the source of any queuing.
They might be at the next traffic jam with no possibility to go ahead. Like aSwissInTheUS has demonstrated above, at one point cars will have extra delay due to filtering bikes. (the amount of this is just a matter of ratio between cars/bikes)
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  #69  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:21
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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st2lemans already said why it is not valid for the Gotthard. But lets make a general calculation. You are waiting 3 hours w/o any filtering motorbike. 100 motorbikes passes you. Tunnel capacity is Tunnelspeed / Safetydistance * Lanes. Lets assume a single lane tunnel with 60 km/h and a safety distance of 50m (Gotthard is 50m, 80km/h). This gives a capacity of 20 Vehicles per minute.
Conclusion: instead of a 180 minute wait you will have a whooping 185 minute wait.
Thanks! You just proved my point.

As for the amount extra wait: it is just a matter of ratio between cars/bikes (take Italy for example). Everyone will see that in Italy you actually have to wait extra due to filtering bikes even if not that evident on highways but definitely at traffic lights in big cities where bikes take up at least half of the waiting space.
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  #70  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:22
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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They might be at the next traffic jam with no possibility to go ahead. Like aSwissInTheUS has demonstrated above, at one point cars will have extra delay due to filtering bikes. (the amount of this is just a matter of ratio between cars/bikes)
You seem to be very worried about a tiny theoretical delay.
Would you also try to stop lorries overtaking each other because that takes up to a minute, so delaying all the faster traffic?

Just come out with it and say you have a chip on your shoulder against bikers because one broke your mirror once upon a time.
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  #71  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:24
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Let me explain then, the piece of road between two lines of traffic is unoccupied and unusable by anything other than a bike.
A bike in a lane occupies that piece of road in as much as another vehicle can not occupy it.
If the bike id filtering in a space that can only be occupied by a bike, ie, between the lanes, then he has freed up the piece of lane otherwise occupied by himself.
Everyone's a winner.

Of course, the physics says the bike is always occupying a piece of road, but who would be so pedantic to come up with petty reasoning like that to say bikes shouldn't be allowed to filter?
Really, please tell me: you really do not understand or you just pretend you do not understand???

Except for the very unlikely situation that the filtering bike will keep on driving between the lanes all the way to his destination, he will (he must: simple physics) steal space to the detriment of others.
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  #72  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:26
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Just come out with it and say you have a chip on your shoulder against bikers because one broke your mirror once upon a time.
Yes I do, Happy now? However not against bikers, but against filtering bikers.
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  #73  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:27
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Really, please tell me: you really do not understand or you just pretend you do not understand???

Except for the very unlikely situation that the filtering bike will keep on driving between the lanes all the way to his destination, he will (he must: simple physics) steal space to the detriment of others.
Well, unless the motorway is running at exactly 100% capacity, ie every piece of tarmac is occupied (safely) then no, your reasoning is wrong.
Bikes zoom off, and no-one loses out.
That's reality.
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  #74  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:27
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Thanks! You just proved my point.

As for the amount extra wait: it is just a matter of ratio between cars/bikes (take Italy for example). Everyone will see that in Italy you actually have to wait extra due to filtering bikes even if not that evident on highways but definitely at traffic lights in big cities where bikes take up at least half of the waiting space.
And if they didn't filter, your wait would be even longer for those behind them.

But, it's not just filtering, but ANY passing whatsoever, so, by your logic, ALL passing should be forbidden!

So, filtering actually helps those they are already ahead of, at a slight expense to those they pass, thus on average, no realistic difference.

Meanwhile, I've never seen Italians complain about filtering bikers, but of course it's perfectly legal there!

Tom
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  #75  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:27
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Yes I do, Happy now? However not against bikers, but against filtering bikers.
Thanks for not giving me a groan
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  #76  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:30
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

Meanwhile, the BEST way to reduce traffic and the need to filter is to forbid vehicles from other cantons on OUR roads!

(especially the Magadino)

Tom
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  #77  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:34
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Well, unless the motorway is running at exactly 100% capacity, ie every piece of tarmac is occupied (safely) then no, your reasoning is wrong.
Bikes zoom off, and no-one loses out.
That's reality.
Just how exactly is my reasoning - that filtering bikes will take up "slots" ahead - wrong if usage is below 100%???

Usage has nothing to do with the fact whether they take up space or not!!!
That is a different story.

BUT I QUIT NOW: I LET YOU VETERANS 17CLEARENCE, ST2LEMANS AND TIMOW give each other likes and attack aggressively everyone with a different opinion than yours. Anyway the initiative has no chance.
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Old 06.03.2012, 15:37
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Just how exactly is my reasoning - that filtering bikes will take up "slots" ahead - wrong if usage is below 100%???

Usage has nothing to do with the fact whether they take up space or not!!!
That is a different story.

BUT I QUIT NOW: I LET YOU VETERANS 17CLEARENCE, ST2LEMANS AND TIMOW give each other likes and attack aggressively everyone with a different opinion than yours. Anyway the initiative has no chance.
To be honest, you have come up with an argument based purely on your own prejudices.

Bikers 1
Bigots 0

I'm going to quit also!
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  #79  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:43
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Old 06.03.2012, 15:50
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Hint: They don't only pass you, but also all the other cars on the road.
Exactly and when they pass everyone in the line then what happens? DO THEY DISAPPEAR???
Err yes. Into the distance. That's the whole point.
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