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  #81  
Old 27.03.2012, 16:57
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

hybird cars are a waste of space, none of them can get anywhere near the MPG of say the VW bluemotion range.

Bought by morons, who then try to be all smug about how they are saving the planet, really? so your brand new car full of very nasty batteries, karting around half a tonne of batteries all the time even when you are not using them, is more environmentally friendly then my 12 year old mint v6 is it??

thought not
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  #82  
Old 27.03.2012, 17:03
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

I agree that Hybrids cars are not as green as they claim, and there is a ignorant smugness of those who drive them.

On the other hand (much like every other cause, charity or environmental saving technology), there is the positive side of 'awareness' and 'steps towards a viable solution'.

They might not be helping at the moment, but they are increasing the concept, research and capital to develop such concepts positive, viable solutions.
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  #83  
Old 27.03.2012, 17:07
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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I agree that Hybrids cars are not as green as they claim, and there is a ignorant smugness of those who drive them.

On the other hand (much like every other cause, charity or environmental saving technology), there is the positive side of 'awareness' and 'steps towards a viable solution'.

They might not be helping at the moment, but they are increasing the concept, research and capital to develop such concepts positive, viable solutions.
I think that's a good point. In time and after a lot more development we might start to see some real hybrid cars which are saving the planet but I think that kind of development is still a long way off.

As for smugness, I agree that the Hybrid bunch do have a certain smug look. However, you can't tell me that total t@wat Clarkson is not smug. I'd love to smash him in the face with a cricket bat.

Bit if a contradiction really as I love Top Gear.
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  #84  
Old 27.03.2012, 17:14
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Bought by morons,
Says the one with a blue Rover...
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  #85  
Old 27.03.2012, 17:23
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Says the one with a blue Rover...

you think if i was embarrased about it I'd have it as my avatar?
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Old 27.03.2012, 17:23
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Says the one with a blue Rover...
Exactly!!!

It looks far better in Red
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  #87  
Old 27.03.2012, 19:00
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

Folks, don't despair. Fuel cells are the future. They must be. After all, they were invented (in Switzerland, by the way, albeit by a German expat) in 1838 and have been the coming technology ever since. So it's only a matter of time until they will replace just about everything heavy, stinky, thirsty etc..

Matter of time, yeah. It's like nuclear fusion. In the late 1950s, technical magazines predicted the commercial breakthrough for fusion reactors in the mid sixties. Nineteen-sixties, mind you.

Never mind. As I said, don't despair. The breakthrough always is just behind the corner.
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  #88  
Old 27.03.2012, 19:06
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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This is thermodynamically impossible
Of course it is. Besides oral surgery, I have a doctorate degree in physics. I was joking.
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Old 27.03.2012, 22:23
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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hybird cars are a waste of space, none of them can get anywhere near the MPG of say the VW bluemotion range.

Bought by morons, who then try to be all smug about how they are saving the planet, really? so your brand new car full of very nasty batteries, karting around half a tonne of batteries all the time even when you are not using them, is more environmentally friendly then my 12 year old mint v6 is it??

thought not
Yeah that's another point. Even if you, say, have an old environment unfriendly car, still energy-wise it would be better to keep it than to build a new one that pollutes less. Remember that half of the pollution a car will ever emit it's due to it's construction. How much energy does it take to build every piece of the car? Melt the iron and so on? How much can you save then when the new efficient car is ready compared to the old one, considering how much energy it took to build the new one? That is something that every polititian avoid to answer because we need desperately to keep our factories busy, but otherwise is non sense.
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Old 28.03.2012, 05:34
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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hybird cars are a waste of space, none of them can get anywhere near the MPG of say the VW bluemotion range.

Bought by morons, who then try to be all smug about how they are saving the planet, really? so your brand new car full of very nasty batteries, karting around half a tonne of batteries all the time even when you are not using them, is more environmentally friendly then my 12 year old mint v6 is it??

thought not
That's a bit harsh... I know they are few, but there are some cool hybrids out there. (Listen to that sound!)

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  #91  
Old 28.03.2012, 10:49
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

but you can't go out and buy that car, and its only a hybird to get the extra benefits the new rules give it, not because it makes it any better, faster, or environmentally friendly.

hybird and battery cars are a white elephant

I was thinking about this this morning, and not knowing anyone stupid enough to have bought a battery car, does anyone know how hot they get? sitting on 1000+ battery cells must make the car pretty hot after a few miles, and aircon would drain the batteries even quicker (and produce even more heat)

do they have any sort of battery coolers? radiators etc?
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  #92  
Old 28.03.2012, 11:23
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

Well, there are a lot of electric trains and human-powered bicycles which are in use every day by millions of people. These are much more environmentally-friendly than any hybrid car out there. About half of the people in Zurich do not own a car, not because they can't afford one, but by choice.
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Old 28.03.2012, 11:23
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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but you can't go out and buy that car, and its only a hybird to get the extra benefits the new rules give it, not because it makes it any better, faster, or environmentally friendly.

hybird and battery cars are a white elephant
Exactly.
In that sense, Hybrids(considering the state of the art) make more sense.
- torque vectoring between corners and difficult situations
- incredible accelerations
- even a fan to suck the air from the underbody like the Brabham BT456 car.
__

I think Hybrids will have a chance to increase the fuel economy only when energy accumulators(ultracapacitors/some novel superbattery/superflywheels) will be used like buffers.
So we will not need to carry with us 450 kgs of batteries to do 200 kms, but instead we will have a small accumulator pack which will have high output power, very very high rate of charge and discharge, high specific power and a dedicated multi range optimized engine(diesel, stirling, gas turbine, etc).

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I was thinking about this this morning, and not knowing anyone stupid enough to have bought a battery car, does anyone know how hot they get? sitting on 1000+ battery cells must make the car pretty hot after a few miles, and aircon would drain the batteries even quicker (and produce even more heat)

do they have any sort of battery coolers? radiators etc?
In F1 for example they use "superbatteries"(a combination of ultracapacitors and batteries. ultracapacitors are used to reduce overheating and overcharging specially under braking). I'm not sure, but may be some of these new hybrids cars use them too and are actively cooled and heated using liquid and radiators.


Edit: The Chevrolet Volt Cooling/Heating Systems Explained. http://gm-volt.com/2010/12/09/the-ch...ems-explained/
Chevrolet Volt battery cooling systems and algorithms. http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/chevy...ems-algorithms

Last edited by Pullrod; 28.03.2012 at 11:46.
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Old 28.03.2012, 15:44
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

Latest study on lung cancer related to Diesel engines:
http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/conte...3-2bed2efd01ab

"This case–control study nested within a cohort of miners showed a strong and consistent relation between quantitative exposure to diesel exhaust and increased risk of dying of lung cancer"
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Old 29.03.2012, 12:41
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

Probably not the place to go into a long argument for and against hybrids, but a few thoughts (as a hybrid driver).
There are significantly reduced emissions during usage of the vehicle. A vehicle using 4 l/100km, 100 g CO2/km pollutes much less than one doing 7 l/100 km, 200 g CO2/km.
The increased emissions during the manufacture can be managed because they're in a controlled, managed environment, which is not the case once the vehicle is on the road.
An electric motor is a much more efficient motor than a thermal motor. You convert the power put into the motor much more efficiently.
I agree that hybrids are not the solution to motor transport, but I would maintain that they are an improvement on the thermal engine and are a reasonable compromise today.
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  #96  
Old 29.03.2012, 12:43
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

"The increased emissions during the manufacture can be managed because they're in a controlled, managed environment," WHAT????

you believe this??


"An electric motor is a much more efficient motor than a thermal motor" - yes it is, but what charges your batteries to run that motor??
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Old 29.03.2012, 12:48
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Probably not the place to go into a long argument for and against hybrids, but a few thoughts (as a hybrid driver).
There are significantly reduced emissions during usage of the vehicle. A vehicle using 4 l/100km, 100 g CO2/km pollutes much less than one doing 7 l/100 km, 200 g CO2/km.
The increased emissions during the manufacture can be managed because they're in a controlled, managed environment, which is not the case once the vehicle is on the road.
An electric motor is a much more efficient motor than a thermal motor. You convert the power put into the motor much more efficiently.
I agree that hybrids are not the solution to motor transport, but I would maintain that they are an improvement on the thermal engine and are a reasonable compromise today.
Are you a Toyota sales man?
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Old 29.03.2012, 12:52
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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I was thinking about this this morning, and not knowing anyone stupid enough to have bought a battery car, does anyone know how hot they get? sitting on 1000+ battery cells must make the car pretty hot after a few miles, and aircon would drain the batteries even quicker (and produce even more heat)
I don't know how that is solved, but there's nothing new about electric cars. They've been around since the 1870s when Werner von Siemens demonstrated one, and they thus pre-date internal combustion engine powered cars by several months.

If you grew up in the UK you will know about milk floats. Many forklifts and similar are also battery powered. In Switzerland many cities use trolleybuses and on routes with short headways they are actually more economic than diesel buses, as well as providing better acceleration and less noise. Some use diesel generators as backup power source for moving inside the depot and for short deviations away from the wires. The new generation uses batteries, however.
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Old 29.03.2012, 12:56
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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I don't know how that is solved, but there's nothing new about electric cars. They've been around since the 1870s when Werner von Siemens demonstrated one, and they thus pre-date internal combustion engine powered cars by several months.

If you grew up in the UK you will know about milk floats. Many forklifts and similar are also battery powered. In Switzerland many cities use trolleybuses and on routes with short headways they are actually more economic than diesel buses, as well as providing better acceleration and less noise. Some use diesel generators as backup power source for moving inside the depot and for short deviations away from the wires. The new generation uses batteries, however.
yep, I grew up in the uk, but they used different batteries then, not the laptop type superhot ones, and the trams etc don't use batteries
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Old 29.03.2012, 13:05
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

True, and up untill the 1920ies electric and internal combustion engined cars ran head to head, have a gander into the Schlumpf car museum in Mulhouse to see what I mean.
Howard Huges had a steam car built for him that was on par with any petrol driven car of the period, sadly he had it scrapped before it was commercialy developed.
Maybe a missed oppotunity there.
But in the mean time Slammer will drive the Slammerjeep with it's 5.4 liter engine and the knowlage that if I hit a Prius I would not even notice it untill I started picking bits of plastic out of the radiator.
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