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  #121  
Old 30.08.2016, 14:31
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Whatever happened to the hydrogen car hype from a few years back, seemed to be working quite well if I remember correctly.
The test cars were ready in 2002... problem with hydrogen is that you need the gas stations on the one hand, hydrogen production on the other and if things go wrong in traffic does hydrogen have the small issue of going boom really well...
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  #122  
Old 30.08.2016, 14:35
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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The test cars were ready in 2002... problem with hydrogen is that you need the gas stations on the one hand, hydrogen production on the other and if things go wrong in traffic does hydrogen have the small issue of going boom really well...
Yes, the "Boom" part is highly efficient.
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  #123  
Old 30.08.2016, 14:52
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

Ok, so we are not getting the Honda Hindenburg GT anytime soon.
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  #124  
Old 30.08.2016, 14:53
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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The test cars were ready in 2002... problem with hydrogen is that you need the gas stations on the one hand, hydrogen production on the other and if things go wrong in traffic does hydrogen have the small issue of going boom really well...
I think you'll find the main issue is the cost of producing pure hydrogen, believe it or not !
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  #125  
Old 30.08.2016, 15:06
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Ok, so we are not getting the Honda Hindenburg GT anytime soon.
Nor the Hyundai Flash, Dodge Excitement, Chevy Detonation, Ford Ground Zero or Renault Pouf.
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  #126  
Old 30.08.2016, 15:25
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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I think you'll find the main issue is the cost of producing pure hydrogen, believe it or not !
Not only that as I have just been reading up, it seems that to economically manufacture one ton of Hydrogen you are making 9 to 12 tons of CO2, the shit you are trying to stop getting into the atmosphere in the first place.
Good old fossil fuels, letīs hope that oil is abiogenic and we donīt need to worry about peak oil.
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  #127  
Old 30.08.2016, 16:26
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Nor the Hyundai Flash, Dodge Excitement, Chevy Detonation, Ford Ground Zero or Renault Pouf.
A Renault never exploded!

.
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it hardly manages to drive out of the parking
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  #128  
Old 30.08.2016, 16:41
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

Unlike the BMW Blast or the Mercedes Mangler
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  #129  
Old 30.08.2016, 16:46
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Unlike the BMW Blast or the Mercedes Mangler
Jaguar UXB, Peugeot Conflagration, Alfa Bomba.

Still struggling with one for Volvo though. Best I've come up with is the Volvo Tank, but that isn't exactly new and novel.
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  #130  
Old 30.08.2016, 16:53
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

Ok here are my calculations:

Cost of the car 23000 chf (2015, 19kkm on the clock). Cost of full charge at home 1.4 chf (14.4 kWh at 9.7r per kWh). Range at full charge: about 80km. Distance to work: 65km. Charging at work: free. Monthly cost of electricity: 20*1.4chf = 28 chf. Distance driven: about 2400km. My current car (Toyota D-CAT 2.2l Diesel) range: about 1000km on one tank. Cost of full tank of diesel at 1.4 chf/l = 91CHF. Monthly cost od diesel if used for commuting to work only: 91*2.4=218 chf - 190 chf saved on fuel monthly. Yearly savings about 2100 chf. Now, how does it compare if I buy a small diesel for commuting? I haven't taken servicing , tires, depreciation in the account here...

Last edited by JakubB; 30.08.2016 at 17:05.
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  #131  
Old 30.08.2016, 16:59
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

how long are the batteries guaranteed for? last thing you want to do is have to pay for replacements
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  #132  
Old 30.08.2016, 17:04
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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how long are the batteries guaranteed for? last thing you want to do is have to pay for replacements
Eight years/160000 km. Road tax 123 chf a year.

Last edited by JakubB; 30.08.2016 at 17:18.
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  #133  
Old 30.08.2016, 17:14
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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The test cars were ready in 2002... problem with hydrogen is that you need the gas stations on the one hand, hydrogen production on the other and if things go wrong in traffic does hydrogen have the small issue of going boom really well...
Yeah, that bomb thing looks scary. But haven't the dutch been subsidizing gas engines for half an eternity, must be more than twenty years now?

Surely there's enough data by now to assess if it is indeed a bomb, how often it blows up in reality.
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  #134  
Old 30.08.2016, 17:28
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Ok here are my calculations:

Cost of the car 23000 chf (2015, 19kkm on the clock). Cost of full charge at home 1.4 chf (14.4 kWh at 9.7r per kWh). Range at full charge: about 80km. Distance to work: 65km. Charging at work: free. Monthly cost of electricity: 20*1.4chf = 28 chf. Distance driven: about 2400km. My current car (Toyota D-CAT 2.2l Diesel) range: about 1000km on one tank. Cost of full tank of diesel at 1.4 chf/l = 91CHF. Monthly cost od diesel if used for commuting to work only: 91*2.4=218 chf - 190 chf saved on fuel monthly. Yearly savings about 2100 chf. Now, how does it compare if I buy a small diesel for commuting? I haven't taken servicing , tires, depreciation in the account here...
Say you'd buy a car worth approx 14000chf.
You do 65KM*2 (day) *250 working days -20 days (holidays)= 29 900KM a year.
A car diesel consuming 6l/100, at 1.4chf/L= 1794 Liters at a cost of 2511.6chf.

So like that, it 9000chf difference in purchase price. It will take you approx 3.5 years to have identical cost. In fact you'd need to add the little cost of electricity for your electrical. So maybe it's 4 years-

It has 19KM + 29900*3.5= 19KM +104650KM =120650 KM. Getting close to the battery replacement very quickly (160000KM). What's the cost? around 5000chf?

I don't know- Without battery price and taking into account that eventually you'll keep the car long then maybe it's worthy.
Especially that maybe in VD you get cheaper tax for having a hybrid?
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  #135  
Old 30.08.2016, 17:31
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Say you'd buy a car worth approx 14000chf.
You do 65KM*2 (day) *250 working days -20 days (holidays)= 29 900KM a year.
A car diesel consuming 6l/100, at 1.4chf/L= 1794 Liters at a cost of 2511.6chf.

So like that, it 9000chf difference in purchase price. It will take you approx 3.5 years to have identical cost. In fact you'd need to add the little cost of electricity for your electrical. So maybe it's 4 years-

It has 19KM + 29900*3.5= 19KM +104650KM =120650 KM. Getting close to the battery replacement very quickly (160000KM). What's the cost? around 5000chf?

I don't know- Without battery price and taking into account that eventually you'll keep the car long then maybe it's worthy.
Especially that maybe in VD you get cheaper tax for having a hybrid?
It is a warranty, not a replacement point. In fact, the battery is designed to hold more than 80% after 10 years of use in a mild climate. Thank you for your calculations.

You mean a road tax? Yes, 75% of rabat.
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  #136  
Old 30.08.2016, 18:01
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Yeah, that bomb thing looks scary. But haven't the dutch been subsidizing gas engines for half an eternity, must be more than twenty years now?

Surely there's enough data by now to assess if it is indeed a bomb, how often it blows up in reality.
I've not heard of a subsidy, yet. If there were one, then there may be change in the wings:
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...nds-from-2025/

They certainly seem to have been promoting change:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govern...ctric_vehicles

The problem with the bomb thing is that Hydrogen is a different animal from Propane which we are quite accustomed to blowing ourselves up with every now and then.

Have a look at:
https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/perm...pdfs/45408.pdf

Note the table on page 2, specifically

Max. Flame velocity
Min. Ignition Energy
Storage Pressure

If people haven't mastered propane to a degree that they no longer blow up their homes, campers, sailboats, and backard BBQs sky high, would you say (just by the seat of your pants) that a gas which has a flamefront which moves nearly 7 times faster, ignites 15 times more easily and is stored at a pressure 21 times higher is, in comparison to Propane, safer?

Even presuming that the technical problems with storage can be solved at a price level which makes it possible, most people would rather have a tiger in their tank than a rabid dog which normally just sleeps, but occaisionally goes "Woof", rather loudly.
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  #137  
Old 30.08.2016, 18:12
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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It is a warranty, not a replacement point. In fact, the battery is designed to hold more than 80% after 10 years of use in a mild climate.
I'd have to call BS on that, no battery I've ever experienced has managed figures like that, and high use / drain kills em even quicker
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  #138  
Old 30.08.2016, 18:17
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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I'd have to call BS on that, no battery I've ever experienced has managed figures like that, and high use / drain kills em even quicker
Are you talking about AA/AAA? Please be reasonable. Not the same level of engineering...
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  #139  
Old 30.08.2016, 18:21
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

If saving money is your absolute primary concern and objective, go for a hybrid. If however you maybe want a little more from a car, suggest you go for a conventional fuel car.

In my opinion hybrids are only any real advantage for short journeys, not a twice daily 65km trip.
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Old 30.08.2016, 18:22
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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I'd have to call BS on that, no battery I've ever experienced has managed figures like that, and high use / drain kills em even quicker
Actually Toyota engineer their system so the accus spend most of their life at an intermediate state of charge and mostly avoid extremely high use/drain. It surprised me as well (particularly given they use NiMH) but apparently the 80%/10 years is real.
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