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  #121  
Old 23.01.2019, 05:50
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

when EV drivers calculate their bill they always multiply the cost of electricity times the usage to achieve a low cost for one full charge which they compare to the cost of one tank of gasoline.

the problem is that they fail to realize the actual cost is double because you also pay for the grid. Check your last electric bill. Additionally if you include charging loss its at least 10% more. Not to mention that "time is money" but we will ignore that cost for now...

And this is with a small percent of electric cars on the road. Now imagine if the percent of electric cars goes up electricity prices and grid use cost will explode. Plus there will be additional taxes because the government will want some money too... Additionally Electric vehicles are heavier and more powerful than gasoline equivalent therefore more tires will be use and more road maintenance will also be required all of which still comes from dirty petroleum products.
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  #122  
Old 23.01.2019, 08:52
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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when EV drivers calculate their bill they always multiply the cost of electricity times the usage to achieve a low cost for one full charge which they compare to the cost of one tank of gasoline.

the problem is that they fail to realize the actual cost is double because you also pay for the grid. Check your last electric bill. Additionally if you include charging loss its at least 10% more. Not to mention that "time is money" but we will ignore that cost for now...

But the price of fuel does in no way represent the true cost of it.


The hard truth is that most likely, the age of cheap energy is over. One way or the other.
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  #123  
Old 23.01.2019, 10:26
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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when EV drivers calculate their bill they always multiply the cost of electricity times the usage to achieve a low cost for one full charge which they compare to the cost of one tank of gasoline.

the problem is that they fail to realize the actual cost is double because you also pay for the grid. Check your last electric bill. Additionally if you include charging loss its at least 10% more. Not to mention that "time is money" but we will ignore that cost for now...

And this is with a small percent of electric cars on the road. Now imagine if the percent of electric cars goes up electricity prices and grid use cost will explode. Plus there will be additional taxes because the government will want some money too... Additionally Electric vehicles are heavier and more powerful than gasoline equivalent therefore more tires will be use and more road maintenance will also be required all of which still comes from dirty petroleum products.
I know I do. Cost of electricity at a Supercharger = 0. Zero times usage is zero. Seems low cost to me.
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  #124  
Old 23.01.2019, 11:10
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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But the price of fuel does in no way represent the true cost of it.
That`s also true for most of our electricity. I have no problem with EVs at all, but I do have a problem with EV owners who "fill" their cars with electricity generated in a coal power station and then tell me how environmentally friendly they are…

The simple truth is that cars are today multiple times as powerful as they used to be just a few years ago. Because that is what customers demand. So power is way too cheap. Once the price is right, customers will care. Then they will demand cars that consume a fraction of what they do today while offering acceptable performance… there is no technical challenge to build them today but nobody buys them.
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  #125  
Old 23.01.2019, 11:19
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

In all fairness Trev, even EVs filled with electricity generated at 100% coal power plants are much cleaner than petrol cars in the same area. There's lots of info on this out there on the web (just try to avoid the Koch Bros hit-job propaganda sites).
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  #126  
Old 23.01.2019, 20:26
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

Just my $0.02.... Can anyone explain to me how come (ore to grave) a 2000kg Tesla is more environmentally friendly than my 99kg 8hp scooter (which uses 1.6L/100km) ?
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  #127  
Old 23.01.2019, 20:37
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Just my $0.02.... Can anyone explain to me how come (ore to grave) a 2000kg Tesla is more environmentally friendly than my 99kg 8hp scooter (which uses 1.6L/100km) ?
It probably isn't, you'd need to run the numbers. It's not too practical to drive your scooter further than a few kms at a time though, certainly not on Autobahn etc.
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  #128  
Old 23.01.2019, 20:50
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Just my $0.02.... Can anyone explain to me how come (ore to grave) a 2000kg Tesla is more environmentally friendly than my 99kg 8hp scooter (which uses 1.6L/100km) ?
There are some reasons why the Tesla is so environmentally friendly:
1. The weight is intentional as Tesla uses a system that converts gravity into electricity. The higher the weight, the more effective.
2. Tesla charges at only 110v, saving half the electricity.
3. Tesla uses a system that can detect the kind of electricity that is supplied (like coal, nuclear, sun, water etc) and picks only the clean ones.
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  #129  
Old 23.01.2019, 21:29
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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It probably isn't, you'd need to run the numbers. It's not too practical to drive your scooter further than a few kms at a time though, certainly not on Autobahn etc.
I've done 400km days and gone to Holland and back on this scooter (creditcard - hotel trip). The whole of Asia runs around on these things.

My point is more that a Tesla has nothing to do with environmentally friendly. It really gets me worked up that in Holland for instance these things are government sponsored, paid for by increased taxation on normal cars. Why would someone buying a 70kchf Tesla need to be sponsored by someone barely able to buy a 5kchf used Punto ? Sponsoring a Twizy I can understand, but a Tesla, no.
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  #130  
Old 24.01.2019, 04:38
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

very good point. weight is also a very important factor because it indicated the amount of material used to manufacture the vehicle and the amount of wear and tare on the environment in which it operates... all of which created waste and pollution.




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how come a 2000kg Tesla is more environmentally friendly than my 99kg 8hp scooter (which uses 1.6L/100km) ?
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  #131  
Old 24.01.2019, 04:40
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

exactly.
unless we discover some new way to create "power" which will solve a lot of human problems on this planet...


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But the price of fuel does in no way represent the true cost of it.


The hard truth is that most likely, the age of cheap energy is over. One way or the other.
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  #132  
Old 24.01.2019, 08:06
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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very good point. weight is also a very important factor because it indicated the amount of material used to manufacture the vehicle and the amount of wear and tare on the environment in which it operates... all of which created waste and pollution.

And the 'amount of material', in order to make the vehicle, must all be mined, process, melted, shipped around the world. What is the environmental cost of this ? Taking this into account makes the 99kg scooter look pretty good.

'specially when you consider that operating it cost less than an ebike. A 400 chf battery for an ebike would get you 15000 km worth of gas for the scooter. On my old ebike the battery conked out after 11000 km, making the scooter the cheaper option.

With this respect I don't understand for instance that in Holland a scooter like this requires a full motorcycle licence. The exam and cost for this are prohibitive. Here in CH though you get the licence without exam after 8 lessons (when you have a car licence), a huge help for getting people out of cars and onto scooters.
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  #133  
Old 24.01.2019, 08:22
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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And the 'amount of material', in order to make the vehicle, must all be mined, process, melted, shipped around the world. What is the environmental cost of this ? Taking this into account makes the 99kg scooter look pretty good.

'specially when you consider that operating it cost less than an ebike. A 400 chf battery for an ebike would get you 15000 km worth of gas for the scooter. On my old ebike the battery conked out after 11000 km, making the scooter the cheaper option.

With this respect I don't understand for instance that in Holland a scooter like this requires a full motorcycle licence. The exam and cost for this are prohibitive. Here in CH though you get the licence without exam after 8 lessons (when you have a car licence), a huge help for getting people out of cars and onto scooters.

You're not serious about this right? Such a scooter is extremely environmentally unfriendly. Unless it is an electric one, it is really a no-go for anyone that cares about the environment.
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  #134  
Old 24.01.2019, 09:12
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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There are some reasons why the Tesla is so environmentally friendly:
1. The weight is intentional as Tesla uses a system that converts gravity into electricity. The higher the weight, the more effective.
2. Tesla charges at only 110v, saving half the electricity.
3. Tesla uses a system that can detect the kind of electricity that is supplied (like coal, nuclear, sun, water etc) and picks only the clean ones.

As an electronics and software engineer, I can say that it is not true. There is no difference for cost whether 110v or 220v the important point is here "current" (depends on power-> watt -> kwh). If you consume much current, your will be higher.. Thats why iron and small devices consume electric differently. Iron consumes much more current than other electronic devices..



you can check here as well


https://www.hydroponics.net/learn/is...-efficient.php
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  #135  
Old 24.01.2019, 09:13
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

Yes I am serious. The scooter has modern fuel injection and a catalytic converter, and weighs 1900 kg less than a Tesla.


I know there used to be reports out there that a scooter was polluting 20 times more than a car, but this was before the VW scandal (where it turned out cars were also polluting 20 times as previously thought)
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  #136  
Old 24.01.2019, 09:32
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

that's exactly the type of fake advertising the Tesla puts out andd some Tesla buyers actually believe

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There are some reasons why the Tesla is so environmentally friendly:
1. The weight is intentional as Tesla uses a system that converts gravity into electricity. The higher the weight, the more effective.
2. Tesla charges at only 110v, saving half the electricity.
3. Tesla uses a system that can detect the kind of electricity that is supplied (like coal, nuclear, sun, water etc) and picks only the clean ones.
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  #137  
Old 24.01.2019, 10:20
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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that's exactly the type of fake advertising the Tesla puts out andd some Tesla buyers actually believe
It was clearly a joke that went over your head. You need to have some knowledge on the subject to get it though.
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  #138  
Old 24.01.2019, 10:25
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Just my $0.02.... Can anyone explain to me how come (ore to grave) a 2000kg Tesla is more environmentally friendly than my 99kg 8hp scooter (which uses 1.6L/100km) ?
I think the point is it isn't ever meant to be the most environmentally friendly way to get from A to B - walking or cycling will always be better. Public Transport (fuel type / occupancy rate dependent) should also be better. Will it be a considerable environmental upgrade on driving a petrol - yes. Does it relocate what environmental damage it does away from populated areas - yes.

So, what you are looking at isn't the world's most environmentally friendly transport method, just a big upgrade on the current most popular method.
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  #139  
Old 24.01.2019, 10:53
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

if you really want to be eco friendly and have to have a car the only answer is just about any 2nd hand car, no car is eco friendly, and a brand new car of whatever fuel system , make and model is the worst option possible.

anyone who kids themselves a brand new tesla is eco friendly is frankly an idiot.

But I'd have one in a heart beat
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  #140  
Old 24.01.2019, 11:12
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

I went to work today on my scooter.......


I now got bollocks the size of raisins


And it's only 2km away
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