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Old 26.12.2007, 19:10
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Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

I just watched "Who killed the electric car" on Youtube. Very interesting documentary, but also highly disturbing. I know there are companies out there such as Lionev that convert and/or sell electric cars. Does anyone know about the possibility and availability of such kits/cars in Switzerland? I know the Swiss are tightly controlling every vehicle on the streets and perhaps they do not yet allow such vehicles on the road. Does anyone know what the policy is, or have any more info on extremely "green" driving in Switzerland? I would like my next car to be as green as possible, and no, a Prius Hybrid is not green enough for me.

The air car should be commercially available in the summer of 2008. That is of course, if the big oil companies and car manufacturers don't lobby, bribe, and corrupt government officials to have them declared not road worthy.

Last edited by ElJeFe; 26.12.2007 at 19:34.
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Old 26.12.2007, 20:50
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

Have you considered a Twike?
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Old 26.12.2007, 20:52
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

Don't know about the Swiss rules for electric vehicles. I do know that they don't have to look or feel lame, though: http://www.teslamotors.com/

Only thing though, where to plug it in if you're living in a flat and used to parking in the blue zone on some street nearby? If this could be solved (and the money for purchasing said vehicle miraculously arranged), I'd definitely get one.
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Old 26.12.2007, 22:25
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Don't know about the Swiss rules for electric vehicles. I do know that they don't have to look or feel lame, though: http://www.teslamotors.com/

Only thing though, where to plug it in if you're living in a flat and used to parking in the blue zone on some street nearby? If this could be solved (and the money for purchasing said vehicle miraculously arranged), I'd definitely get one.
Yeah that Tesla is pretty wicked, but out of my price range :-) I have a garage at the moment so arranging for electricity shouldn't be an impossibility.

A Twike is an interesting concept, however it does require physical input, and I do not consider the pricing quite reasonable (30,000+ CHF for a basic model), plus the fact that driving on the highway is probably not allowed since the top speed is around 85 km/h. Air powered vehicles are supposed to cost around 3500 € according to the manufacturer, with a top speed of 110 km/h.
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Old 27.12.2007, 01:30
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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The air car should be commercially available in the summer of 2008. That is of course, if the big oil companies and car manufacturers don't lobby, bribe, and corrupt government officials to have them declared not road worthy.
The air car is a big scam hunting for investor money. The principle fails because of a couple of physical problems and a ridiculously low energy density in this storage system. I could prove this with my mediocre math skills but at half past one in the morning, after four Cuba Libres, this is obviously out of the question.

Do not, I repeat DO NOT talk about the air car at the next Venture Cocktail party.
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Old 27.12.2007, 08:53
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

I always wondered if we were to switch our entire car pool (say Switzerland, to start small) from gas to electric - where would all that electricity come from?
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Old 27.12.2007, 09:43
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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I always wondered if we were to switch our entire car pool (say Switzerland, to start small) from gas to electric - where would all that electricity come from?
Thanks for raising that question. Of course a green BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle) will need to be "fueled" with green electricity. Some argue that electric plants rely on coal and therefore the cars are not green, however the amount of CO2 resulting from charging the car via a power plant is far less than the CO2 it would spew out of its tailpipe were it powered by a combustion engine. Some people might start installing wind-power devices or solar panels to harvest the fuels for their BEVs. It is also a lot easier to change a single source of electricity into a green source, than it is to change tens of thousands of cars to become green. If we had the technology to put a man on the moon 40 years ago, we sure as hell have the technology to mass produce green cars today, the problem is the powers that be (big oil, car companies) who don't want to see their profits dwindle, and who will exert as much power as possible to keep the junkies (us) dependent on oil.
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Old 27.12.2007, 10:16
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Thanks for raising that question. Of course a green BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle) will need to be "fueled" with green electricity. Some argue that electric plants rely on coal and therefore the cars are not green, however the amount of CO2 resulting from charging the car via a power plant is far less than the CO2 it would spew out of its tailpipe were it powered by a combustion engine.
Is that a fact? I'd like to see hard figures. For instance, the CO2 quantity released for 1kW electric power (say at the plant, to be nice and forego the enroute losses and the efficiency factors of the storage battery and the electric motor) versus 1kW gasoline power.

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If we had the technology to put a man on the moon 40 years ago, we sure as hell have the technology to mass produce green cars today, the problem is the powers that be (big oil, car companies) who don't want to see their profits dwindle, and who will exert as much power as possible to keep the junkies (us) dependent on oil.
Ah, sure, I keep hearing that argument. The only tiny detail that is forgotten by proponents of that phrase is the cost of the "man on the moon" technology. When cost comes into play, I usually hear "I do not consider the pricing quite reasonable".
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Old 27.12.2007, 10:26
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Is that a fact? I'd like to see hard figures. For instance, the CO2 quantity released for 1kW electric power (say at the plant, to be nice and forego the enroute losses and the efficiency factors of the storage battery and the electric motor) versus 1kW gasoline power.
Yes that is a fact, you can look up the figures yourself, besides you can request green energy at your local electricity provider in Switzerland. Green energy being solar power, hydroelectricity and other eco friendly energy sources.
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Ah, sure, I keep hearing that argument. The only tiny detail that is forgotten by proponents of that phrase is the cost of the "man on the moon" technology. When cost comes into play, I usually hear "I do not consider the pricing quite reasonable".
What about the cost to secure unrenewable energy resources in the middle east and Afghanistan? Currently the price is at hundreds of billions of dollars, and thousands of lives, not to mention that the price of oil is skyrocketing much to the pleasure of big oil. Hundred dollars a barrel is just the beginning. The "man on the moon" example was just to exemplify human creativity, not regarding cost obviously. Besides, can you can't put a price on the environment as a whole, it's far too precious.
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Old 27.12.2007, 10:40
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

Although I don't have figures, I have heard the same thing as ElJeFe is saying from different sources.

Obviously hydro and nuclear will produce less CO2 than a car, but there are other environmental concerns with those. Though Switzerland is able to produce hydro without flooding large tracts of endangered rainforest.

Gas turbine power stations also win easily, as gas turbines are inherently more efficient than petrol or diesel engines once they get over a certain output.

But my understanding is that even the nastiest coal powerstations (and Australia uses filthy brown coal which should have been outlawed decades ago) are better than a car engine. This is because powerstations run at much higher temperatures allowing for more complete burning and less emissions, are designed to run at one speed/temperature/capacity and to be run at maximum efficiency within a small range of that, and are constantly monitored and maintained by a team of highly trained engineers.

A petrol or diesel car on the other hand spends most of it's life running cold and inefficiently. A car is also designed as a compromise so that it can operate in a variety of conditions from idling in traffic, through climbing up a mountain pass to cruising on the Autobahn at 200kph, so is rarely operating anywhere near it's maximum efficiency. Finally, maitenance on a car involves a biannual trip to a mechanic who can range from a highly skilled technician to some guy who barely got through high school but is cheap.

Electric motors do better here as they operate efficiently over a much wider range of conditions and don't nead to warm up to an ideal operating temperature to operate correctly.
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Old 23.12.2018, 10:14
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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I just watched "Who killed the electric car" on Youtube. Very interesting documentary, but also highly disturbing. I know there are companies out there such as Lionev that convert and/or sell electric cars. Does anyone know about the possibility and availability of such kits/cars in Switzerland? I know the Swiss are tightly controlling every vehicle on the streets and perhaps they do not yet allow such vehicles on the road. Does anyone know what the policy is, or have any more info on extremely "green" driving in Switzerland? I would like my next car to be as green as possible, and no, a Prius Hybrid is not green enough for me.

The air car should be commercially available in the summer of 2008. That is of course, if the big oil companies and car manufacturers don't lobby, bribe, and corrupt government officials to have them declared not road worthy.

What happened to the video?
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Old 23.12.2018, 11:51
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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What happened to the video?
Your Google mojo is weak
https://youtube.com/watch?v=nsJAlrYjGz8
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Old 23.12.2018, 12:23
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Thanks! So what else is new?


GM and co have been buying out to kill competition since day 1.

LA once had a trolley system. Now its limited to Disneyland.


By the way, where are all the electric cars that we have now, going to go when their batteries are dead?
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Old 23.12.2018, 12:38
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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By the way, where are all the electric cars that we have now, going to go when their batteries are dead?
They’ll get new batteries while the old ones are repurposed for other uses such as household batteries. The cars (at least a Tesla) have much less wear and tear than those with internal combustion engines.
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Old 23.12.2018, 21:14
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

So one day I just may have a Tesla in my hand while surfing the tube.
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Old 24.12.2018, 05:50
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Thanks! So what else is new?

...

By the way, where are all the electric cars that we have now, going to go when their batteries are dead?
Batteries in EVs are generally well managed. Maybe not so for some cheap Chinese brands, but for sure, in Tesla EVs.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla...miles-3-years/

Here is an example of a Tesla Model S that did mainly supercharging (which is tougher on the battery than slow charging). And yet it lasted almost 500000 km before they changed the battery (on warranty). So they really beat the shit out of that battery and they already saved 60000 USD on a car that cost them 80000 USD. This is comparison to an equivalent ICEV.

And even so, when some day there are enough batteries from EVs to recycle - they will be recycled. Nothing in the batteries are lost, so after recycling, they can start over in that cycle.

Just because there is a warranty of 8 years on the battery of a Tesla, doesn't mean that after 8 years, the battery is dead. Few cars make it past 500000 km anyway - so for most EVs, the batteries never have to be changed. Only reused for other purposes, or recycled into new batteries.

Now, imagine all the oil, spark plugs, belts, exhausts, catalytic converters and such, that an ICEV consumes over its lifetime. EVs don't even have that.

Sticker price might (still) be higher for en EV over an ICEV, but the total cost of ownership is already much lower. Unfortunately, most people are not sufficiently informed to see beyond sticker price. They will simple say "A 40000 CHF EV is twice as expensive as a 20000 CHF ICEV"). Which is true only the day you buy it. Over the course of the life of the car, a 40000 CHF EV will be much cheaper than a 20000 CHF ICEV.
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